Comments on: Alpha 900 – finder and frames http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/ Search this site - over 170 articles on Alpha system topics! Subscribe to our magazine too! Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:11:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: vbpholaw http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1154 vbpholaw Sun, 24 Aug 2008 03:02:37 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1154 Thanks David. When I'm using flash I'm usually in manual mode, selecting the appropriate ambient light exposure for the conditions. The exception to this is when shooting fill flash outdoors in "decent" light, where I know there is sufficient ambient light to get a decent ambient exposure with the camera in A mode, and where the camera is more willing to set a shutter speed higher than 1/160. As an aside, what I wish the A900 would have for flash shooting is a "balanced fill" mode, where the camera will set an ambient exposure that won't result in dark (black) backgrounds as frequently occurs when shooting flash in darker interiors when the camera generally defaults to 1/60, which is not sufficient in such conditions to result in an ambient exposure. I have actually discussed this with a Sony rep at the big New York fall photo show (someone from Japan who apparently has some involvement with product development). This is something that would help wedding and event shooters who need or want some level of ambient exposure with their flash. Ideally, such a feature would allow the user to define the slowest shutter speed (in A mode) that the camera could set to avoid getting too slow a shutter speed (which you could still do or use in manual mode). In essence, it would be the same as using the AEL button ("slow sync") when shooting with flash, except that the meter would remain active so you don't have to continually press the AEL button to get the "slow sync" results in changing light conditions (indeed, it could be an option for the AEL button and the toggle function). I believe that Nikon offers a feature like this in its higher end cameras (though I'm not 100% certain). Were Sony to add this capability it would be a positive sign that it is learning a bit more about how photographers actually shoot and what features or capabilities are truly useful. Thanks again for all your good work. Mark Thanks David. When I’m using flash I’m usually in manual mode, selecting the appropriate ambient light exposure for the conditions. The exception to this is when shooting fill flash outdoors in “decent” light, where I know there is sufficient ambient light to get a decent ambient exposure with the camera in A mode, and where the camera is more willing to set a shutter speed higher than 1/160.

As an aside, what I wish the A900 would have for flash shooting is a “balanced fill” mode, where the camera will set an ambient exposure that won’t result in dark (black) backgrounds as frequently occurs when shooting flash in darker interiors when the camera generally defaults to 1/60, which is not sufficient in such conditions to result in an ambient exposure. I have actually discussed this with a Sony rep at the big New York fall photo show (someone from Japan who apparently has some involvement with product development). This is something that would help wedding and event shooters who need or want some level of ambient exposure with their flash. Ideally, such a feature would allow the user to define the slowest shutter speed (in A mode) that the camera could set to avoid getting too slow a shutter speed (which you could still do or use in manual mode). In essence, it would be the same as using the AEL button (“slow sync”) when shooting with flash, except that the meter would remain active so you don’t have to continually press the AEL button to get the “slow sync” results in changing light conditions (indeed, it could be an option for the AEL button and the toggle function). I believe that Nikon offers a feature like this in its higher end cameras (though I’m not 100% certain). Were Sony to add this capability it would be a positive sign that it is learning a bit more about how photographers actually shoot and what features or capabilities are truly useful.

Thanks again for all your good work.

Mark

]]> By: admin http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1153 admin Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:56:05 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1153 Quite right. Of course it sets 1/160th nearly all the time - or slower - so you get used to the idea that the X sync is still 1/160th. The Alpha 900 will match the best for X sync I'm sure (someone who has had one in hand for a few minutes apparently managed to suss out or be told the maximum X-sync - I think they may have been told, as they did not have a flash gun and I don't see how you can find out otherwise. 'Told' may mean anything from accurate information to wishful thinking even from a Sony employee, so I will not repeat the details. Let's just say it is unexpected - I was pretty sure it would have to be slower than the A700). I'll amend the article. David Quite right. Of course it sets 1/160th nearly all the time – or slower – so you get used to the idea that the X sync is still 1/160th. The Alpha 900 will match the best for X sync I’m sure (someone who has had one in hand for a few minutes apparently managed to suss out or be told the maximum X-sync – I think they may have been told, as they did not have a flash gun and I don’t see how you can find out otherwise. ‘Told’ may mean anything from accurate information to wishful thinking even from a Sony employee, so I will not repeat the details. Let’s just say it is unexpected – I was pretty sure it would have to be slower than the A700). I’ll amend the article.

David

]]> By: vbpholaw http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1152 vbpholaw Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:59:22 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1152 David, Thanks for your thoughts and follow up comments. However, I noted an error in your discussion of the flash sync speed for the A700. It will sync at up to 1/200 with SSS active, 1/250 with SSS off. The 7D had the slower sync speed you mention, 1/125 with SSS and 1/160 without (if I recall correctly). The general discussion of flash sync speed for the A900 is important, for the reasons you noted, particularly if Sony has any thoughts of trying to market this camera to wedding pros (and it should given the fast CZ and G glass available, fixed and zoom, combined with SSS, which gives it an edge on the competition for available light, or low light shooting in many situations. Of course, good high ISO quality is another important factor there, and it remains to be seen what that will be like. :-) David,

Thanks for your thoughts and follow up comments. However, I noted an error in your discussion of the flash sync speed for the A700. It will sync at up to 1/200 with SSS active, 1/250 with SSS off. The 7D had the slower sync speed you mention, 1/125 with SSS and 1/160 without (if I recall correctly). The general discussion of flash sync speed for the A900 is important, for the reasons you noted, particularly if Sony has any thoughts of trying to market this camera to wedding pros (and it should given the fast CZ and G glass available, fixed and zoom, combined with SSS, which gives it an edge on the competition for available light, or low light shooting in many situations. Of course, good high ISO quality is another important factor there, and it remains to be seen what that will be like. :-)

]]> By: BoY http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1149 BoY Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:03:12 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1149 On the subject of windowed readout, since the width of the APS-C frame is very close to the height of the FF, I wonder if SONY has thought about providing a vertical cropped frame for DT lenses (or FF lenses). This will enable people shooting vertical frame without having to rotate the camera. On the subject of windowed readout, since the width of the APS-C frame is very close to the height of the FF, I wonder if SONY has thought about providing a vertical cropped frame for DT lenses (or FF lenses). This will enable people shooting vertical frame without having to rotate the camera.

]]> By: admin http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1148 admin Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:30:19 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1148 I have revised the article to change the 95 per cent view graphic (1st image). First of all, the original under-represented the 95 per cent margin. My calculations for viewfinder apparent size, as published in the British Journal of Photography (and copied by DigitalRev's website!) are based on Nikon's statement that their viewfinders show '95 per cent (horizontal and vertical)' which clearly indicates the percent is given for the linear dimensions. Some websites say '95% of the image area' but this is misleading. A 95% coverage (horizontal and vertical) finder shows 90.25% of the image area. Secondly, my shifted frame indication was misleadingly extreme; the actual positioning error of SSS would be within the margin between the 95% and 100% zone, on the A700, the biggest displacement I could get was 3.5% linear off-centre. David I have revised the article to change the 95 per cent view graphic (1st image). First of all, the original under-represented the 95 per cent margin. My calculations for viewfinder apparent size, as published in the British Journal of Photography (and copied by DigitalRev’s website!) are based on Nikon’s statement that their viewfinders show ‘95 per cent (horizontal and vertical)’ which clearly indicates the percent is given for the linear dimensions. Some websites say ‘95% of the image area’ but this is misleading. A 95% coverage (horizontal and vertical) finder shows 90.25% of the image area. Secondly, my shifted frame indication was misleadingly extreme; the actual positioning error of SSS would be within the margin between the 95% and 100% zone, on the A700, the biggest displacement I could get was 3.5% linear off-centre.

David

]]> By: admin http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1147 admin Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:22:52 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1147 Ref ET: "I hope they do allow a DT lens in full frame mode." I can't confirm this. I do know that the Alpha 900 will have a cropped mode for DT lenses, but I do not know whether this cropped mode is also available for full-frame lenses (I assume it is); or whether fitting a DT lens will force the crop mode, and lock out full frame. On dPreview there is a thread about possibly using the 18-250mm etc. No-one has replied sensibly yet - the 18-250mm is no good for full frame. At no focal length do you get a clear frame. The 16-105mm produces a surprisingly large 16mm circle which would crop to a clean square given some PTLens type corretion, but only at exactly 105mm does it almost make a decent full area. The 16-80mm never does, and its 16mm circle is no better than the 16-105mm. The 11-18mm is the real winner on full frame, as it can be used at 14mm and stopped down to f11 for an almost perfect result. So yes, it would be great if the APS-C/DT function of the Alpha 900 was either not automatic, or could be over-ridden when a DT lens is mounted. David Ref ET: “I hope they do allow a DT lens in full frame mode.” I can’t confirm this. I do know that the Alpha 900 will have a cropped mode for DT lenses, but I do not know whether this cropped mode is also available for full-frame lenses (I assume it is); or whether fitting a DT lens will force the crop mode, and lock out full frame.

On dPreview there is a thread about possibly using the 18-250mm etc. No-one has replied sensibly yet – the 18-250mm is no good for full frame. At no focal length do you get a clear frame. The 16-105mm produces a surprisingly large 16mm circle which would crop to a clean square given some PTLens type corretion, but only at exactly 105mm does it almost make a decent full area. The 16-80mm never does, and its 16mm circle is no better than the 16-105mm. The 11-18mm is the real winner on full frame, as it can be used at 14mm and stopped down to f11 for an almost perfect result.

So yes, it would be great if the APS-C/DT function of the Alpha 900 was either not automatic, or could be over-ridden when a DT lens is mounted.

David

]]> By: admin http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1146 admin Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:18:42 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1146 Here is the bad news: I have now done the test without swinging the camera round. Just turning the camera on its side, either way, tilting it for an angled shot, holding it upside down - all result in the sensor not parking in exactly the same position. While it is very consistent with a normal horizontal composition, a different orientation results in a small change in the sensor position. This is occupying too much of my time when I'm supposed to be working, and I know I should now test all my other Alpha bodies to see how well the sensor parks. But, from my few tests on the Alpha 700 (the latest one done with a remote release to avoid any possibility somehow stressing the assembly) I can see that the sensor does not locate with 100 per accuracy, therefore a 100 per cent viewfinder (at least on the Alpha 700 mechanism) would be prone to composition errors. David Here is the bad news: I have now done the test without swinging the camera round. Just turning the camera on its side, either way, tilting it for an angled shot, holding it upside down – all result in the sensor not parking in exactly the same position. While it is very consistent with a normal horizontal composition, a different orientation results in a small change in the sensor position. This is occupying too much of my time when I’m supposed to be working, and I know I should now test all my other Alpha bodies to see how well the sensor parks.

But, from my few tests on the Alpha 700 (the latest one done with a remote release to avoid any possibility somehow stressing the assembly) I can see that the sensor does not locate with 100 per accuracy, therefore a 100 per cent viewfinder (at least on the Alpha 700 mechanism) would be prone to composition errors.

David

]]> By: BoY http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1145 BoY Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:44:11 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1145 David, Thanks for doing the test. I agree if the SSS is functioning correctly, the background should be sharp while the target blurred. How about some more modification of the test: try a 18-250 at the long end to make the SSS work harder, use high shutter speed to minimizing the motion blur, and instead of swing the setup, rock it at a high frequency. (leave it on the hood of a parked car with engine running?) David, Thanks for doing the test. I agree if the SSS is functioning correctly, the background should be sharp while the target blurred. How about some more modification of the test: try a 18-250 at the long end to make the SSS work harder, use high shutter speed to minimizing the motion blur, and instead of swing the setup, rock it at a high frequency. (leave it on the hood of a parked car with engine running?)

]]> By: ET http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1143 ET Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:20:51 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1143 I hope they do allow a DT lens in full frame mode. With the CZ 16-80 you could crop a nice square format post processing - that would result in 16 megapixel resolution. Though with the CZ 16-80 you would get the familiar vignetting across more of the frame if used wide open - I tried it with my 600 si film camera. When I tried the Tamron SP 11-18mm F/4.5-5.6 Di-II it seemed I was getting full frame coverage from about 15mm. We'll need to wait and see what sharpness across the frame will be like, but stopped down to f11, it might be an interesting option. I hope they do allow a DT lens in full frame mode. With the CZ 16-80 you could crop a nice square format post processing – that would result in 16 megapixel resolution. Though with the CZ 16-80 you would get the familiar vignetting across more of the frame if used wide open – I tried it with my 600 si film camera. When I tried the Tamron SP 11-18mm F/4.5-5.6 Di-II it seemed I was getting full frame coverage from about 15mm. We’ll need to wait and see what sharpness across the frame will be like, but stopped down to f11, it might be an interesting option.

]]> By: admin http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/08/20/alpha-900-finder-and-the-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1142 admin Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:27:53 +0000 http://www.photoclubalpha.com/?p=907#comment-1142 I've now done a better test. I made a construction using Kennett brackets, to hold a target in front of the lens, and shot at 5 fps while swinging the Alpha 700 around (not shaking it, just changing movement direction). The sensor does not repark dead centre and frames show different positions for the target, including the very edge of the assembly which is unlikely to 'move' due to flexibility. the greatest deviation is significant, but most frames are very well centered. I repeated the test using single frames, setting the swing in motion before pressing the shutter, and the results are similar - the A700 sensor may have moved between shutter press and actual exposure. But, I think the test is flawed. While it does detect a shift in sensor position at the moment of exposure, in real situations the subject is not attached to the camera, and the degree of movement I'm using far exceeds typical tremor shake - you'd have to be using the camera on a fairground ride to get the same forces. Also, SSS appears to be disabled or nonfunctional under these conditions (similar to fast panning with action). The fixed target should be showing a motion blur equal to the movement of the sensor during exposure, but it doesn't. Sony has said that the SSS system is compatible with panning, meaning that after the initial acceleration the sensor would presumably be static but not centered (think about it - it would a disaster if it jerked back to centre during a pan having made a small deflection on first detecting movement). David I’ve now done a better test. I made a construction using Kennett brackets, to hold a target in front of the lens, and shot at 5 fps while swinging the Alpha 700 around (not shaking it, just changing movement direction). The sensor does not repark dead centre and frames show different positions for the target, including the very edge of the assembly which is unlikely to ‘move’ due to flexibility. the greatest deviation is significant, but most frames are very well centered.

I repeated the test using single frames, setting the swing in motion before pressing the shutter, and the results are similar – the A700 sensor may have moved between shutter press and actual exposure.

But, I think the test is flawed. While it does detect a shift in sensor position at the moment of exposure, in real situations the subject is not attached to the camera, and the degree of movement I’m using far exceeds typical tremor shake – you’d have to be using the camera on a fairground ride to get the same forces.

Also, SSS appears to be disabled or nonfunctional under these conditions (similar to fast panning with action). The fixed target should be showing a motion blur equal to the movement of the sensor during exposure, but it doesn’t. Sony has said that the SSS system is compatible with panning, meaning that after the initial acceleration the sensor would presumably be static but not centered (think about it – it would a disaster if it jerked back to centre during a pan having made a small deflection on first detecting movement).

David

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