A700 and Photoworld

[Omega892]

Well done David for doing some very hard groundwork on testing the new A700 and ensuring that the Autumn issue of Photoworld, a copy of which arrived yesterday but after I had been shopping, contained the info.

Reading through this it would appear that I have been a bit hasty in judging the A700 on what was, being tight for time and having checked over that 80-200mm APO G, a few minutes handling. Indeed the viewfinder was good, but no surprise to we who have seen the like before (do many Canikon users appreciate how impoverished they have been) and there are many other good points but I still do not like that joystick type controller.

I have other issues though, with the increase in pixel count, a change to the fundamental sensor type and new RAW formats I would expect to have to add new import filters to Lightroom. This may force me into purchasing the new release of Lightroom and, by making do with PS Elements 1, being tempted by Adobe’s recent offer of a discount on a combined Lightroom/CS purchase. This will be a considerable additional cost for adding an A700, and the issues do not stop there for I may have to think seriously about replacing my desktop computer which admittedly is 5 years old but of high spec for its time having 1GB put in at build.

Deskspace is limited and I would still require the ability to use my Minolta filmscanner (only just had a recent long scanning session for a book author) so Vista may not be a good choice. Not all that keen on a move to Vista anyway as I hate the thought of MS having even more control over my computer.

To be honest I am a little irritated by the way in which things have panned out. I lashed out on Dimage Master for processing RAW images from the D7D, the Minolta supplied software being so awkward and slow, and was rather miffed by Konica/Minolta giving this away with the D5D. Then I tried a development version of Pixmantec’s RawShooter which showed much promise and decided to go with that, only to find it bought up by Adobe.

To be sure Lightroom isn’t at all bad, although not everybody would agree, but using a PC now tight on primary hard drive space (additional external drives notwithstanding), will force me to ditch Dimage Master and Sony Image Data Converter (which I have only tried once and have left it alone since).

I find later versions of Elements too invasive of computer resources, storage space and processor usage. I tried Element 3 on a new laptop (dual core high spec Intel + 2GB RAM) and it ground things down to a crawl and had no easy way that I could find to open directly in the picture editor without setting up all the other razzmatazz first. I like to be in control of how pictures are grabbed from a memory card or USB flash drive. Besides with USB flash drives I often transfer other data files at the same time as images and thus PS Elements intervening is the last thing I want. Fortunately I had only just set up the laptop with an OEM version of XP-Pro for self installation so having tried many other tricks (some obtained from an O’Reilly web site page proving that I was not alone), including uninstalling Elements 3, I ended up having to re-install XP-Pro so as to regain proper control over USB memory devices – essential with the external 500GB drive I had.

With CS can one opt to just use the image editor or is one forced into installing and using any library modules present?

The above presents some of the many reasons behind my thinking that the spend on a lens was of potentially greater benefit right now than a new A700.

[David Kilpatrick]

VueScan and SilverFast can both run older Minolta scanners under Vista. There are two or three very good shareware raw converters - RawTherapee for the PC, and RawPhotoProcessor for the Mac are both A700/D300 up to speed compatible and of course handle all the older files.

CS in any flavour installs a stack of library modules and is very memory and diskswapspace hungry. These small programs are so efficient they can be run on palmtops, let alone older PCs. But they take some getting to know and are solely dedicated to raw conversion.

David

[dewarp]

Hi Omega - Your experiences sound very similar to mine. Although I have a legal copy of Elements 3 I haven't used it because it tries to take over my computer. However, I now use CS2 for editing and can report that it works fine on my laptop. This is an IBM T43 with 512 Megs RAM and a 50 Gig HD (I have to use two 250 Gig external drives for the pix!). CS2 works OK with these meager resources, although sometimes after about 4 hours it locks-up and I have to reboot. The lock-up is normally when starting CS2, so no loss of data. However, I do not use the Bridge function or ACR. For conversion I use Capture One LE 3.7.3 and my gallery programme is an ancient version of Canon's Zoombrowser (I would probably use Picasa if starting again).

Of course, CS3 I cannot comment on.

I had a look at the A700 but there was nothing that jumped out at me to convince me to drop my beloved D7D. For me, the only real problems with the latter are the "First Black Frame" error and occasionally (when I need to up-res part of a shot) I wish I had more pixels to work with.

Regards - Peter Dewar

[Omega892]

I had a look at the A700 but there was nothing that jumped out at me to convince me to drop my beloved D7D. For me, the only real problems with the latter are the "First Black Frame" error and occasionally (when I need to up-res part of a shot) I wish I had more pixels to work with.

Regards - Peter Dewar

Hum! That first black frame error. There was a time when we in UK could get that fixed FOC, excepting carriage, but I don't know if it is still open.

From SA I don't know.

I was intending to get mine looked at but it was so intermittent that I could not be sure that the repairers would see the problem. Also we had a few family events coming up as the year developed, one a wedding, our youngest - at last, pushing 30 and the fault being very intermittent I didn’t really want to part with the camera for an indefinite length of time. The 1stBF happened again the other day. It seems worse when camera has not been used for a while but I cannot establish a pattern for sure.

I still prefer the handling of the D7D (a better match for the weight of that Minolta 80-200mm APO G fast focus I have just got hold of which exudes quality and is a salutary lesson in 'you get what you pay for') and find the VC7D grip of utmost utility - what I would like is a flash mount on the end of the body (some hopes) because in portrait mode a camera mounted flash is just not quite in the right position for correct bounce control. The A100 still frustrates me sometimes when I try and figure; 'now how do I adjust this ....?'

Cheers
L.

[David Kilpatrick]

FBF will always happen if you switch the camera on after the start of the month, after not using it, and immediately take a picture. I had it on my first shoot in October, and again in November.

This is not the same as regular FBF. It is just a result of the camera doing its recalibration, and for the rest of the month the behaviour will be normal.

David

[Omega892]

FBF will always happen if you switch the camera on after the start of the month, after not using it, and immediately take a picture. I had it on my first shoot in October, and again in November.

This is not the same as regular FBF. It is just a result of the camera doing its recalibration, and for the rest of the month the behaviour will be normal.

David

Well I'll be...!

Was this me not fully RTFM or something we could only find out from pro's such as you.

Thank you for that, at last it makes sense. Never thought about that.

I must drink more Duff beer!

[Omega892]

FBF will always happen if you switch the camera on after the start of the month, after not using it, and immediately take a picture. I had it on my first shoot in October, and again in November.

This is not the same as regular FBF. It is just a result of the camera doing its recalibration, and for the rest of the month the behaviour will be normal.

David

The plot thickens.

Yesterday I switched on a D7D for the first time this December and shot some pictures and did NOT experience a First Frame Black.

[dewarp]

I too looked out for this phenomenon when I switched on my 7D this past weekend. The FBF did not appear. I last captured images on 29 Nov, so the camera had not been out of action for long. Normally the FBF seems to be worse the longer the period of inactivity.

Regards
Peter Dewar

[David Kilpatrick]

See other thread. Depends if you fire very quickly, or let the camera focus and mess around for a few seconds longer.

David

[dewarp]

Perhaps this isn't the place to discuss the FBF problem, but to continue... On Saturday 29 March 2008 I had a nasty experience. Whereas it normally takes between 1 and 6 attempts to get over FBF, it must have taken in the region of 50 to 70 attempts! I really thought that my 7D had finally expired. I had given up deleting the black shots and was simply formatting the card to get rid of them. For the record, I had previously used the 7D on Sunday 16 March - so less than two weeks.

When it eventually started working it worked perfectly. Got some good shots of Cosmos fields (local wild flowers) and storm clouds on Saturday afternoon.

Sony needs to hurry up with the A900.

[Omega892]

dewarp's recent first frame black (FFB) experience is similar to mine although I managed to recover shooting more quickly.

David's comment:

let the camera focus and mess around for a few seconds longer

and my experience makes me wonder if the type of lens fitted at the time of a calibration FFB (if that is what is being alluded to elsewhere) has a bearing on how well that process goes, especially in poor light.

My trouble began with a Sigma 50-500 mm fitted and persisted after changing to a Minolta 500mm f8 AF Reflex but sorted itself after fitting a Minolta HS 80-200MM APO G.

I note that at the time the light was rather poor for auto-focus with the Sigma and this may have been true for the 500 Reflex. I note that with this latter lens only the centre box focus indicator can be used with attempts at off centre focus selection failing.

[David Kilpatrick]

Calibration should not depend on the lens. It should happen after the 1st of the month even if you switch the camera on with no lens in place. But we do not know how iterative the process is. For example, you can assume that if a picture takes about 3 seconds to process fully (despite the buffer allowing 3 fps) that calibration, which involves checking a black frame for hot pixels and also a process for identifying dead pixels, will take about the same. But if the software in the camera was to detect too many faulty pixels (a typical result of an ageing sensor, or one left for a long time unused) it might apply the correction, then make a second check. I can imagine this process might possibly take ten or twenty seconds, running a repeated test cycle. During this time you would see the CF card light come on and flicker, even without a CF card fitted, or a shot taken.

If you happen to switch on and press the shutter during the period the camera needs for calibration, you will get a black frame (because that's what is in the buffer). If you switch the camera on and leave it for a while I would guess you are unlikely to get a black frame - unless something in the software tells the camera it must shoot such a frame, and also analyses it.

It's only a guess but almost any CPU can hang or get into a loop if instructions are interrupted at the wrong time. Maybe this could cause the system to lock into shooting the black frame repeatedly.

So far my 7D, despite regular FFB every month for the first shot, has not gone any further.

David

[dewarp]

I have in the past tried the technique of switching on and leaving the camera for some time before attempting the first shot. It did not seem to make any difference. Also, since David's previous post I have looked out for any noticable change at the start of a month - but cannot identify anything like that.

I take the point about the CPU hanging. I must admit that during the particular incident I was getting a bit frantic and not giving the 7D any time to recover.

It is noticable that the shutter sound changes when it eventually starts to work.

Yesterday I got just the one black frame on start-up. This is "normal".

As far as I know, Sony will repair this fault free of charge, providing they still have the spares. However, in South Africa they apparently send the unit to Japan - so it is mainly the lost time that concerns me since I only have the one body.

regards
Peter Dewar

[David Kilpatrick]

Have you tried firing the first frame with the lens off, looking at the shutter from the front? If so, does the shutter open at all, or does it remain closed for some reason if the sound is different?

I am fairly sure that if the shutter fails to open, the black frame issue is unrelated to the 1st of month calibration black frame, and needs a repair to avoid the camera becoming unusable.

David

[Bluebear]

My 5D has suffered from intermittent FFB for several months now. I don't know if its related to the 7D problem, but mine seemed to be more temperature-affected - worse when cold after a period of non-use. Although now the happy owner of an Alpha 700 I have sent the 5D to Johnsons Photopia in Newcastle (Staffordshire) and they are doing the repair (inc new part) FOC. Not much help to anyone in South Africa though!!