AUTOMATIC built-in pop-up flash and external flash problem

[srt101man]

I've had my 350 now for 2 months and love it. The only issue I have with it is what I believe is correctable with SW. I purchased a Sony HVL-F36AM digital camera flash and it works great, usually. The problem is there is no way I've found to be sure that the AUTOMATIC built-in pop-up flash is going to NOT fire also. When I first started to use the F36AM, the problem (both flashes firing and washing out the image) would manifest itself on most of the shots. I contacted Sony via their online support text chat twice. The first time I was told to use a certain setting that would have the 350 use the external flash for AF illumination (this is accomplished by selecting "Auto" for "AF illuminator" on the 2nd Record Menu page/screen). That didn't cure the problem since the camera was already set to that. The 2nd time I communicated with a Sony tech, I was told to reset the camera (this is accomplished by selecting "Reset default" on the 3rd Setup Menu page/screen). After that the problem happened much less but it still happens.

As a computer person for 38 years (14 of them spent with Kodak doing R&D on digital imaging (I did work with Steven Sasson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sasson but not when he invented the digital still camera. And I worked with John Compton but not when he co-invented the new CFA to replace Bryce Bayer's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_Bayer, who I played tennis with)), I think what happened was the F36AM, a rebadged Minolta 3600HS, which I also own, was developed and tested with the Alpha 100 and/or 700 which have a built-in pop-up flash which requires manual intervention (it is not automatic). So the problem with an AUTOMATIC built-in pop-up flash also firing wouldn't happen with either of those cameras. So, Sony either needs to add a SW patch/update to the 350's configuration menus to manually disable the built-in pop-up flash BUT not the external flash OR they need to add a SW patch/update which has the 350 recognized that if there is an attached external flash unit that is turned on, then disable the internal flash.

Does anybody else have this problem? Besides taping down the flash, does anybody have a solution besides a SW patch/update?

Does anyone have a 200/300/350 and a Sony HVL-F36AM digital camera flash that could test their system and see if this is a global or personal problem? The test would be to rapidly take a few pictures with the external flash that would be stressful enough that if it is a personal problem, the camera would eventually wait for the flash to charge and the built in flash would stay put while waiting for the external flash to charge and if it is a global problem then when the external flash couldn't keep up with the photographer's trigger finger the popup flash would start firing. If I was doing this, I'd set the focus to manual and take pictures after sunset of the house across the street as fast as the camera would let me.

TIA

[David Kilpatrick]

Well, this was one of the first things I tried on the A350, and mine refuses to fire both flashes. If you fit a second flash, the onboard (even if manually popped up) is disabled.

Maybe this is because I have auto pop-up disabled anyway? Can't you just do that?

David

[srt101man]

I wrote:

The problem is there is no way I've found to be sure that the AUTOMATIC built-in pop-up flash is going to NOT fire also.

David wrote:

Maybe this is because I have auto pop-up disabled anyway?

So David, how have you disabled your auto pop-up? When I turn the dial to Flash Off mode, it disables ALL flash, both internal and external. Other than that, I haven't found a way to disable the pop-up flash.

TIA.

[Javelin]

I have an A200 and 36AM flash and what your describing does not happen on mine with the flash popped up or not. as long as the AF iluminator is set to Auto the camera built in flash never fires. unless wireless mode is activated with the flash off the camera.

[srt101man]

Thanks for sharing.

My A350+36AM problem might be "personal" as yesterday the friend (he has an Alpha 100) I was loaning my 350 system and Minolta lens collection to for the past 4 weeks returned it all to me and reported that the pop-up flash misbehaved for him also. His conclusion was once the camera has chosen the pop-up flash, the camera and flash both need to be cycled off/on to recover.

I did a stress test last night with the A350+36AM where I set the focus to manual, aimed the camera across a parking lot, and fired the camera as fast as I could with everything set to "Auto". Whenever the flash couldn't keep up with my shutter finger, the camera would take an "available light" shot. I could NOT force/trick the internal flash to pop-up. So, it seems I have the dreaded intermittant problem since I have no new theory as to why the camera resorts to using the pop-up flash except perhaps if there is a loose connection somewhere between the flash and camera and if the camera doesn't sense an external flash for an instant, it switches to internal flash until the camera & flash are cycled off/on again.

Hopefully, when David shares with me how he disabled the pop-up flash, that will make this issue go away with my A350+36AM system.

[Javelin]

I wonder. what kind of batteries are you using in the flash? are they rechargables by chance? I wonder if you tried it with plain disposables?

[srt101man]

I wonder. what kind of batteries are you using in the flash? are they rechargables by chance? I wonder if you tried it with plain disposables?

They are rechargables. Why would that make a difference in this situation? I do realize that each rechargable cell (4 of them in the flash) is usually ~1.2v rather than ~1.5 for each carbon non-rechargable cell. My problem happens with batteries with a full charge and rechargables in general discharge so that their voltages stay high almost until they are exhausted.

I am very curious as to where you're going with your line of questioning.

TIA.

[David Kilpatrick]

To disable the pop-up flash just use normal P, A, S or M modes. In only pops up in 'scene modes' or on the Green Auto Setting of Death, the one setting you should never use on any Minolta, KM or Sony camera because of the bad things it can do to your settings and picture quality. It's not quite as bad as it once was (it original disabled RAW entirely!) but still, you should shoot with PASM unless you positively need something like Night Portrait (one of the best modes ever designed).

David

[srt101man]

To disable the pop-up flash just use normal P, A, S or M modes. ... you should shoot with PASM unless you positively need something like Night Portrait (one of the best modes ever designed).

I discovered the problem because I allow my spouse to use my cameras and she needs it on AUTO (sometimes she could benefit from the yet to be implemented "Auto Composure" feature).

BTW, I'm surprised that you call the modes that don't use the pop-up flash "PASM" rather than the more pronouncable "MAPS".

[David Kilpatrick]

Errm, MAPS spells MAPS and means something. PASM doesn't mean anything except the camera modes and we have called it that throughout the photo press for 30 years!

Of course Canon users call it PTvAvM...

David

[srt101man]

Errm, MAPS spells MAPS and means something.

Sorry. I've been working for various employers the past 4 decades where they do their best to choose TLA's and acronyms of various lengths that can be pronounced. Examples would be "BART" ([San Francisco] Bay Area Rapid Transit), "SALT" Talks (Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties), "DIP" switch (Dual In-line package), "SEPTA" (SouthEastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority), "KIMS" (Kodak Image Management System), "KAR" (Kodak Archival Retrieval), etc..

[David Kilpatrick]

The difference is that people say P-A-S-M, not pasm as in spasm, I guess. More written than pronounced.

David

[Javelin]

[quote="David Kilpatrick"]The difference is that people say P-A-S-M, not pasm as in spasm, I guess. More written than pronounced.

David[/quote

hahha talk about spasm.. you try to pronounce PTvAvM without a sctoch and a sense of humour

[Javelin]

Some rechargeables, if you happen to hit a certain discharge rate they can seemingly go dead for a second, it shows up as a dead drop in voltage on a graphing meter (thats how I found it actually. no an analog meters how I found it, the graphing meter recorded it). I discovered this with NiCd' s a few years ago where a backup circuit was supposed to maintain memory on a module. every similar battery we tried exhibited the same thing. we solved it by going to diferent batteries of a smaller capacity then eventually to just regular alkalai batteries later when we eliminated the chargers.

I just thought maybe your camera forgot the flash was attached and started the built in.

I wonder. what kind of batteries are you using in the flash? are they rechargables by chance? I wonder if you tried it with plain disposables?

They are rechargables. Why would that make a difference in this situation? I do realize that each rechargable cell (4 of them in the flash) is usually ~1.2v rather than ~1.5 for each carbon non-rechargable cell. My problem happens with batteries with a full charge and rechargables in general discharge so that their voltages stay high almost until they are exhausted.

I am very curious as to where you're going with your line of questioning.

TIA.

[Greg Beetham]

The difference is that people say P-A-S-M, not pasm as in spasm, I guess. More written than pronounced.

David[/quote

hahha talk about spasm.. you try to pronounce PTvAvM without a sctoch and a sense of humour

I rember once when I was at an Archery comp. someone around the campfire (there were a fair few rum and cokes involved) said try saying this fast,
"Mrs Hunt has a rough cut punt, and so has her son Mike Hunt"
Of course everyone had to have a go...with varying degrees of success, as I recall.
Greg