HVL-F56AM ratio control confusion...

[WhyBe]

My manual says that the ratio control for my HVL-56 is not operational even though it is displayed. However, in use, the ratio control definitely does work. I shoot in nightclubs and find that without the ratio control set to "2":1, the flash is not strong enough to produce the results I like (I don't want to raise the ISO and lower the aperture/shutter speed).

Do I have a later model of the HVL-F56AM or is the manual just not accurate at all ? Or is some other phenomenon at work when I adjust the ratio control?

[David Kilpatrick]

You can't have ratio control unless you have two remote flash units in use. I do not have a 5600/56 here to check, and I don't see how a ratio control could be set unless you have multiple heads in use, on any camera. Are you sure you are not setting a manual power output - I know that does not look exactly the same?

David

[WhyBe]

The only parameter I am changing is the ratio. RATIO is flashing along with the 2:1 to the right of it when I'm setting it. The flash is always in TTL mode and I shoot in Manual. I've went through the "check all the settings" procedure many times because I want to believe what the manual tells me. However, I know from experience that when I set RATIO to 2, I get the proper light I need for the dark nightclub I shoot in. If it is not set to 2, my pictures come out dark and unflattering to the potential customer (I sell photos on the spot).

My ideal settings are:
Camera is in "M" mode
Shutter 1/60
F10 - F16 (depending on the distance/skin tone of the subject, background is irrelevant)
ISO400
Flash is set to 1/1 and I use the "Wide" plate.
Flash is in TTL mode

If the ratio is not set to 2 with these settings, my picture will look dark and dull. Changing it to 2 will result in bright, colorful (therefore saleable) pics. If I set the ratio to "off", I would have to set the aperture to F7.1 or wider to "brighten" things up but it doesn't look anywhere near as good.

[David Kilpatrick]

You settings make no sense at all. It sounds to me as if you are forcing the flash to fire at full power by confusing it .

I have just tested my 58, which is actually about the same real power as the 56. With the wide panel down, on 1/1 power, at ISO 400, the maximum working distance is only 2.5m at f/13. You are ranging from f/10 to f/16, and that tells me that with the 56 and wide panel and 1/160th plus manual full power you would be getting correct exposure with typical night club subjects (assuming fairly dark large surroundings - my test just now was in a small room with light decoration).

So I think that what's actually happening is that you managing to work in a manual mode on the flash, despite being set to TTL flash. I suggest that you start shooting using manual mode entirely, setting the flash to Manual (you can not be in TTL mode and Manual at the same time, so your details are conflicting). Set your lens to a better aperture - f/10 all the time would be ideal, as at f/16 you are losing optical sharpness. Use the flash manual power control to match subject distance, you might need to make a few tests to get it right that's all.

Certainly there is nothing at all you can do to make the 56 produce more than its full power output, which is what you appear to be claiming.

David

[WhyBe]

...(you can not be in TTL mode and Manual at the same time, so your details are conflicting).David

When I said Manual mode, I was referring to the camera itself, not the 56. The 56 stays in TTL mode.

Because of the hectic environment, there's no time to adjust the flash in manual mode, I need it to be automatic (TTL). I'm using the SAL1680Z lens. I adjust the aperture on the fly, but that's it...no time for any other adjustments. I know if the flash was in manual, my results from shot to shot would be highly inconsistent. Yet, my shots are very consistent in brightness/quality.

I can be 5 feet from someone or 15 feet (depending on where I shoot). The closer I am to the subject and the lighter the skin tone, the higher the aperture needs to be set. Shutter stays at 1/60 because I am being nudged and bumped constantly and it seems to make the sudden movements not matter.

See the photos here. All of these shots have the RATIO set to 2. The shots where RATIO set to off were thrown away. On Tuesday, I'll specifically do some comparison shots for you to see.

[David Kilpatrick]

I did not suggest you had the flash set to manual, but simply that the effect of whatever you are doing is to make it a fixed output. Your pictures, and your aperture settings, and your need to adjust the aperture with distance, all point to that. You also mentioned 1/1 power. That can not be set while the flash remains in TTL mode. Without a 56/5600 next to me, I can't really tell exactly what's happening.

You should be able to shoot pix like this using a fixed aperture of f/8 on the CZ 16-80mm, and ADI Flash TTL. A setting of ISO 400 plus DRO+ (Advanced, or if using an A700, Level 2 or 3 manual setting) will make JPEG results from the camera almost failsafe, and more consistent than you are showing here. It should not be necessary to change aperture when changing distance. I suspect that you are getting maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the number of flash exposures you should, and that recycling times can be more in the order of 3 seconds than instant. There is an easy way to check - try using continuous burst shooting for three or four flash frames in sequence at 3fps, using your settings. If you only get one good exposure, then dark or blank frames, you are effectively using the flash on full power.

Can you explain what you meant by having the flash on 1/1 and the ratio at 2:1? In TTL mode, you can not set 1/1.

David

[WhyBe]

Can you explain what you meant by having the flash on 1/1 and the ratio at 2:1? In TTL mode, you can not set 1/1.

David

OK, you're right, I see that in TTL mode I can not change or set the level. I've never attempted to set a lower level anyways. I notice the zoom on the flash adjusts according to how I zoom the lens. If I am in TTL mode, should I see the level automatically adjusting according to what I am shooting ? Any time I look at it, it says 1/1.

I know if I were to use an F8 with my settings, I would be overexposing everyone's face. Which makes me believe I should be lowering the ISO. I'll see if those pictures still have that "look" I need.

I also use the Energizer Ultra lithium (8x) batteries, if that makes any difference. I have DRO set to off (using the a350). I didn't think it had any effect on flash behavior.

[David Kilpatrick]

It's not worth using the DRO+ function on the A350 at ISO 400 to improve flash pix (it is very much worth doing so with the A700, where DRO+ Manual settings can really improve such shots).

If you do not use the 'ratio control' - which is technically impossible when the gun is mounted in the A350 - I think you will see that 1/1 disappear and be replaced by AUTO. What that means is that you are actually using manual flash, at full power. It is a coincidence that you have learned to make it work. With the wide panel in place, the flash should not zoom - that should only happen automatically when the wide panel is not pulled out. Certainly on the HVL-F42AM, which works mostly like a 56 with a slightly different interface, the wide panel automatically sets the flash to 24mm and the zoom button (manual zoom) or attached camera has no effect.

I think you would get VERY inconsistent results using TTL auto at your nightclub. I see there are white wall graphic panels, then large dark areas behind people, then clubbers with lots of reflective/bright stuff and others with dark gear. Looking at your pix, I would expect the A350+56 combination to fail a lot of the time and produce very dark face tones, just by metering off white shirts or gold dresses - or that white graphic panel, which is sure to produce dark flash exposures.

Therefore you would almost certainly HAVE to learn to use your flash with manual power and do aperture adjustments yourself. But you seem already to have got to that stage, you just don't realise what you have been doing. You think that TTL auto flash in consistent - in fact, it's a nightmare, and the Sony/Minolta system is not the best either. Actually, using manual flash power on 1/4 power at around f/8 then changing to f/11 for quarters and f/5.6 for groups of 4-5 people would work well. You could also get really good full shots of the club using 1/1 power at f/8.

David

[WhyBe]

I definitely have never seen AUTO on my 56 screen. At the club, the screen definitely says TTL (I've made the mistake of having the 56 in Manual with disatrous results. I ended up retaking shots because they were so unpredictable, making the people impatient).

Could there be some conditions in the club causing the ADI to not work? I use spot metering and spot focus so I don't get settings based on flashing lights and flat screen TV's in the background.

EDIT: When I put the a350 into AUTO mode, I get the AUTO indicator on the flash. This is irrelevant to my situation though, because I shoot with the a350 in manual mode in the club with the HVL-56 set to TTL. Am I mismatching the modes of the camera and flash, causing this weird behavior ?

[KevinBarrett]

On Page 9 of the F56 flash manual. a map of the flash's display is shown, indicating the "RATIO 2:1" display with this text:

Ratio-flash indicator*

• This indicator is displayed, but this function is not available.

(This asterisk may also apply to the "WL Control" display, though this is unclear.)

"AUTO" will only be displayed on the flash gun's screen if the camera is set to the "Auto" or "green" mode through the camera's mode selector dial. The "Auto" on the flash's display means that the flash may or may not be used, as determined by the camera's automatic settings (a P&S type function). Otherwise, the Flash is always "auto," when used with fill flash, rear-sync., or WL settings until you select "M" with the flash's "mode" button.

[David Kilpatrick]

On the 42 there are two displays for AUTO - Auto operation (flash on/off etc) and Auto exposure. I believe the 5600/56 has the same functions present.

You can not set Manual flash power on the A350 unless you are using M mode on the camera. If you switch the camera off M, the gun is forced into Auto mode and TTL. So it would be possible to get a display of 1/1 (full manual power) using your settings on the camera. I can only test with the 42 and 58 now, having sold my 36 and 56 models. I find that 1/1 means full power. If that is displayed, the flash is not operating in TTL Auto mode.

David

[WhyBe]

I want to see a situation (or settings) that would make my HVL56 levels adjust automatically (1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.) while the flash is in TTL and the a350 on manual. Should I be expecting to see the display reflecting the actual flash levels ?

Still, the RATIO setting definitely has a brightening effect (whether it is forcing full power or not, is irrelevant--it's doing something).

Tomorrow night I will try shooting with the flash in TTL (as usual), RATIO OFF, with the aperture in the F8 range and my ISO at 200. Knowing that I shouldn't be adjusting the aperture to compensate for brightness, I'm going to be checking that my camera and flash is functioning properly.

[David Kilpatrick]

No, the power level does not change when using TTL. The power is not fixed at any level, it is auto-set by feedback in effect.

Keep using ISO 400, the flash on auto will work better at 400 than 200 especially for more distant subjects.

David

[WhyBe]

Well, if I stay at ISO400, then I can't shoot at F8 or lower because I will overexpose. Remember, the shots you see are done from F10 to F16, ISO400, flash in TTL,RATIO turned on(???). With the RATIO turned off, I can probably do F8 or lower, but the pics don't look flattering to clubbers.

Like you said Dave, I think somehow, when I turn RATIO on, it is somehow putting the HVL56 in Manual mode (it is behaving as if it's in manual) and I am compensating for the full power flash by manipulating the aperture.

[David Kilpatrick]

You won't overexpose! I have just checked f/8 and ISO 400 with TTL Pre-Flash TTL metering and Rear Curtain sync (which is vital for night club shots to avoid odd effects from the ambient light). My settings are 1/160th manual, because this is the fastest speed possible and reduces ghosting from spotlights or disco lights if they accidentally get in the shot; f/8; ISO 400; Pre-Flash TTL though ADI will work better in your situation; wide panel in place; I can shoot right down to about a foot away with either the 42 or the 58, and the 56 is no different. Auto exposure means just that, it will not overexpose.

For your situation I would set Wide Area focus to make sure that the camera did not focus between people. If it did this with ADI, the faces would be overexposed. ISO 400 just cuts down the amount of energy used, making recycling between flash exposures faster, and making your batteries do twice as many shots as ISO 200.

David