which lens to buy?

Discussion of lenses, brand or independent, uses and merits
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agorabasta
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by agorabasta »

jcoffin wrote:Of course, it's possible I'm just incompetent, and it's purely an accident that the shots get progressively worse as the aperture gets smaller -- but if you're going to claim that, at least have the courtesy to point out what I've done wrong.
Results definitely are getting progressively softer above f/11. But you still may get pixel-sharp results at f/22 when shooting closer objects.
In your example you are getting most of the blur from the air between the cam and the subject. It happens as the lightpath from the subject becomes thinner at tight apertures, all the local air impurities and non-uniformities have more impact on the resulting image. And then also, the tighter apertures command longer exposure, and your target simply moves with the air flow around it.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Sheesh agorabasta I think you might be being a bit tough on the camera and lens outfit there. One of the issues that strikes me is the exposure range within the photo itself, it looks like about seven stops between the darkest shadow and the brightest highlights at least, so you were likely to end up with the white boat being blown anyway. Does the 16 have IS? What shutter speed and ISO was it? I’m not really sure exactly what the focus point was, the top of the stone wall directly in front looks sharpish but I doubt that was it, but it looks like DOF began from about there which looks really close allowing for 12mm FL, maybe too close for a shot with such apparent depth, maybe a confirmed focus on the first table set might have been a little better…maybe. But I wouldn’t be in a hurry to blame the camera on that one; I would look askance at the lens and composition first.
Perhaps if you had an f11 shot with the NEX5 and the same shot with the 5n then we could see….
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

That was a nice scene jcoffin, great mountains, pity about the haze and the lighting looking a bit flat at that time of the day, but for me the crops show the progressive softness past f11, and I think you can take it to the bank that's what the result will always be.
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Ps. what lens?
agorabasta
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by agorabasta »

Greg Beetham wrote:What shutter speed and ISO was it? I’m not really sure exactly what the focus point was, the top of the stone wall directly in front looks sharpish but I doubt that was it, but it looks like DOF began from about there which looks really close allowing for 12mm FL, maybe too close for a shot with such apparent depth, maybe a confirmed focus on the first table set might have been a little better…maybe.
Greg,

The shutter speed was 1/100s, the EXIF is intact in those samples. The focus was in the middle of the central crop, on the closest post of the terrace roof.

But you really don't need to look any farther than that central crop, all problems are quite obvious already in lower left corner of the central crop. There's the blur and CA already present. At the same time, infinity is very sharp and the point of focus, being much closer than the left corner, is also quite sharp.

And it's not an isolated example, it's always quite poor like that using UWA with 5N. Some decent results with 5N plus any UWA may be gotten only if focused at 10m and farther. The original 5 always works perfectly as expected.
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by agorabasta »

Now back to the f/22 performance - judging by the quite straightforward calculations, like those made with that diffraction calculator, the Airy disk diameter at f/22 should be 29.3um which for a 16Mp sensor means that any periodic pattern denser than 4px period should be completely blurred out, it simply must be completely smooth without any trace of original pattern. Then for the f/16 the blur-our must happen at 2.25px period. And then mind also, that there's an LPF to make things worse.

But in reality, there's no complete extinguishing of regular patterns at those apertures. Here's a quick test using a Samyang 85/1.4; first f/22, then f/16 and an f/4 shot for reference, all shot with a55, all raw samples processed with same parameters, 100% crops -
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f22.jpg
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f16.jpg
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f4.jpg
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Greg Beetham
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

There is another peculiarity, see the bit of gutter on the corner in the second crop, it looks nearly as sharp as the post but it’s at the far end in reality, way past the table and chairs. I’m sort of thinking maybe 1/100sec was a tad slow and there was a degree of camera movement in parts of the shot…maybe, or there is image field problems of some sort as well, lens or sensor related.
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

The regular pattern must be a lot bigger than 4px in the photo then, (whatever 4px is). Just joking agorabasta, but we have no idea in reality how close those lines actually are, I'm thinking they are visible to the naked eye quite easily...not microscopic or such.
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by agorabasta »

Greg, I'm definitely never getting any unintentional motion blur at 1/100s 12mm :) But no motion may ever explain excessive CA in blur, especially so close to the image centre.

All in all, such results are totally inexplicable without more detailed info of the camera design. The only apparent guess I have is that certain body angles of converging flux don't play well with its LPF and microlens array. In that case, the zone of abnormal blur and CA should move smoothly within the DOF with changing shift off the image centre. And I think it's the same problem David is seeing with 16-80 on a77.
Last edited by agorabasta on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
agorabasta
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by agorabasta »

Greg Beetham wrote:The regular pattern must be a lot bigger than 4px in the photo then, (whatever 4px is).

But those are 100% crops and not too much overcompressed at that. So just download and take a closer look. Then you may consider getting yourself such a bottle, just for test shooting, not more than a few shots at a time, I mean 8)
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Greg Beetham
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Yes it looks interesting to take a couple of test shots of for sure, but unfortunately I doubt I'd be able to find that particular one here to take a proof of so to speak ha ha.
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by jcoffin »

Greg Beetham wrote:That was a nice scene jcoffin, great mountains, pity about the haze and the lighting looking a bit flat at that time of the day, but for me the crops show the progressive softness past f11, and I think you can take it to the bank that's what the result will always be.
Greg
Ps. what lens?
The view is basically just looking directly west from my back yard, so I can (and do) retake roughly the same picture just about any time I want. The haze is, unfortunately, all too common -- temperature inversion trapping haze next to the mountains is a year-round "feature".

The lens is probably the rarest I own: a Tamron 70-210 f/2.8. Based on the number I've ever seen for sale on eBay, there were apparently about 100 each made in Canon and Nikon mount, and maybe a dozen in Minolta mount.
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by jcoffin »

I'm looking at agorobasta's latest post, and have to disagree with the conclusion. If we look at the parts with the finest detail (e.g., the "shadowed" area immediately below the hand held to the forehead), we do see that the detail is entirely gone in the f/22 shot. At f/4, I can clearly see that the shading is done as a series of lines. At f/16, the lines aren't nearly as clear, but I can still see that they are lines. At f/22, there's only the faintest hint of lines left at all -- most of that area just looks like a big smudge.

Likewise, immediately below in the beard: at f/4, the individual lines that make up the texturing/shading are clearly visible. At f/16, they're much less so, and at f/22, only a few of the coarsest lines are still visible as lines at all -- the finer lines have basically just turned to a homogeneous "mush".

I could go on for a while citing more areas, but the conclusion remains constant: the shot at f/4 shows the most fine detail, and in the shot at f/22, none of the finest detail remains at all.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Too me it just shows what we already know, that f22 is soft compared to f11 etc. I guess another thing is, choosing something that is only two dimensional doesn’t give f22 a chance to show what it actually has some use for, probably not so much today with digital, but back in the film era where you couldn’t do any stacking it had some use.
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agorabasta
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by agorabasta »

Greg Beetham wrote:Too me it just shows what we already know, that f22 is soft compared to f11 etc. I guess another thing is, choosing something that is only two dimensional doesn’t give f22 a chance to show what it actually has some use for, probably not so much today with digital, but back in the film era where you couldn’t do any stacking it had some use.
The f/22 finds a lot of use with people who need a fill flash for casual shooting outside in bright sun. Having nothing more than on-board flash with no HSS, f/22 becomes the only option in some cases. And no, I'm not one of those people.

Progressive nature of softening at aperture tightening is exactly the property telling you that it is not coming from diffraction.
Diffraction effectively creates a low-pass filter with very peculiar properties. First of, the diffraction is non-dissipative. Which means that the energy of the suppressed spatial frequencies is not removed from the image, it's just relocated to the lower spatial freqs. The lower frequency that gets most of the boost is exactly the half of the diffraction cutoff frequency. Which would mean that at f/22 16Mp image would get the 6-pixel features/freqs emphasised while all features smaller than 4-pixel totally obliterated. It would look exactly like running a USM at 6px 'radius' at 200% plus a 100% low-pass at 3px radius. It should be actually looking sharpened in a downsampled image and would also show strong halos.
So the result would be very far from smooth blurring you observe with your SLR lenses, but it is exactly the thing you may see in any simple optical microscope.

The softening we see with our lenses progressively smooths out all the higher frequencies in the image, even those well below the half-cutoff, and it also decreases the contrast, both local and global. While the global contrast loss is often caused by diffuse reflections off the iris blades edges, the local contrast loss comes from the simple haze in non-perfect optical media used in the lens.
The regular lens softening looks exactly like a result of a simple dissipative filter, much like the effect some simple RC filter circuits cause to electric signals. The microscopic imperfections and refraction index variations in the optical medium are the things that create that dissipative blurring. But! Exactly those things also let some of the image detail well past the diffraction limit to still appear in the captured image, although at deeply attenuated energies. It happens because the original wavefront loses its self-coherence interacting with those imperfections/variations as different paths in that dissipative optical media introduce random phase shifts into adjacent parts of the wavefront, and so the different parts of the original wavefront lose the ability to create interference patterns on the sensor top which is exactly the diffraction we could expect there.
Thus it's exactly the non-perfect nature of our lenses that prevents the diffraction from happening in our lenses/cameras, and it's exactly the imperfection of our lenses that lets us see the detail past the diffraction limits. It's just up to the lens manufacturer to decide how much haze is needed to provide an optimum balance between haze and diffraction suppression, and then to charge us more for the better end result.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: which lens to buy?

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Iggy toople zap agorabasta, it’s just sufficient to say f22 is softer than f16 generally speaking. You are right about daylight flash fill if your sync speed is only good for full power flash, I had to use f22 in the film era sometimes myself as the X-700 only had 1/60sec sync, it’s not an ideal solution either as the flash pulse is not snappy at f22 and you can easily end up with two slightly displaced exposures in the one image, one for daylight and one for the flash.
I see somehow we ended up with close up work instead of distant scenic type photography; some lenses can use f22 reasonable well for doing close work. I introduced another factor, a third dimension to make things more difficult for the lens, most likely one of the main purposes for that aperture is/was capturing the depth of a subject in one exposure.
Greg
Ps. Yes I know my rule has some light scratches, I’m suitably mortified.
A700 KM100 Macro (+F56) f4
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f11
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