Specifically for the discussion of the A-mount DSLR range
Forum rules
No more than three images or three external links allowed in any post or reply. Please trim quotations and do not include images in quotes unless essential.
classiccameras wrote:Just to put things in to perspective and I also have similar thoughts to the last post, there has been too much investment in A mount lenses for Sony to throw the towel in just yet. Since the introduction of the SLT system, their sales have improved. They know they will never be able to compete with Canikon, so they will make a product that will be supposedly superior at a similar price point to the competition. They have already done that with NEX.
World sales of DSLR cameras by the 3 main manufacturers plus Pentax.
Canon: 47%
Nikon: 33%
Sony: 6.2%
Pentax around 2.5%
I have left out Olympus because they no longer make DSLR's
Pete
Sony don’t make any DSLR’s, the mirror in an SLT plays no part in forming an image in the viewfinder so they aren’t DSLR’s therefore currently Sony has 0% of that market, Pentax outsell Sony in that market.
Of the DSLT market Sony has 100% as no one else makes them.
Greg
dynax800si wrote:Some Q/A about the plastic mount:
Is the camera inferior in terms of performance and durability in comparison to the metallic mount? We have verified that there are no issues in general use.
Are there lenses that cannot be used? Does the camera have less strength? All lenses can be used. When using heavy lenses, however, we recommend that you handle the camera in ways that do not apply loads, such as to support the lens as was done with metallic mount cameras.
What is the mount made of? High strength engineering plastic.
Why did you choose a plastic mount? We have been using plastic mounts to downsize and lessen weight since the α57.
bfitzgerald wrote:
So I can't see this as a positive move in any way, rather the death throws of Sony's SLT range. .
You have a tendency to offer wrong predictions. Sony just released 70-400 II and 50mm Zeiss lenses. They have a lot invested in the A-mount. It's not going anywhere any time soon.
Here is what I think is happening:
A58 has the same launch price as A37. What that means is that Sony is bringing the entire APSC line down due to cheaper full-frame cameras squeezing APSC cameras from the top.
So A3s line is killed.
A5s price range comes down to the discontinued A3s price range.
A6s line will replace the previous A5s spot (price wise).
That will mean a new A7s camera that would be 100 to 300 dollars cheaper than A77 launch price.
And that would mean they will have breathing room for a 1500 - 2000 dollars full-frame in an year or two.
A58 is the first step in that process.
Nikon outmaneuvers Sony making and selling ILC’s on a regular basis, Sony might have a camera to compete with the D600 next year?
While Nikon was stocking shelves and selling lots of D800 and D800E’s and bringing an affordable FF to market Sony was doing what? Designing and making a super expensive SLT FF that hardly anyone wanted or could afford.
I remember when the A700 was missing in action for a few years and nobody knew if that was it for prosumer APS-C’s from Sony or not and no definite word from them either during all that time except they had the brainwave idea that everyone who wanted an upgraded A700 could just buy and A850….great idea except Sony forgot to price the A850 accordingly.
The cheaper FF idea got lost somewhere in the disconnected departmental interior of Sony and Nikon picked up the ball and ran with it, introducing the low price FF D600 and Sony has nothing to offer in that segment, have fun for a year Nikon.
Greg
All APS SLT's starting with a55/33 had a plastic mount with metal outer ring, those are 55, 33, 35, 65, 57, 37. The only exception is the a77 which has it all metal.
Now even that last piece of metal is gone from the a58 model. The mount strength and precision were already unacceptable, and it became worse now.
bfitzgerald wrote:I'm just seeing a watershed point here where some users will simply say "yawn to APS-C" and let's just go full frame. I wouldn't pay £1100 for a D7100 looks more like an £800 camera (like the K-5II price is nowhere near as high as it used to be) I can't see dedicated action shooters being too happy with such a tiny buffer on the D7100 either.
I know Canon have yet to respond but I'm seeing a new phase of cameras where most of the interesting stuff is going on full frame. Why bother paying £1100 for a crop sensor body if you can add a few hundred more and go full frame.?
I don't agree with this. The beauty about APS-C is that, assuming the sensor is of the same Mp order as FF, the reach is extended by the crop factor. Now that is very useful for nature photography, as I am now beginning to discover - certainly cheaper than adding a new long lens. I note also that the huge new London panorama was created using crop cameras (seven Canon 7Ds, each with a 400/2.8 and 2x extender)
dynax800si wrote:Why did you choose a plastic mount?
We have been using plastic mounts to downsize and lessen weight since the α57.
That's not true. They have been using plastic mounts since a55/33.
Here I'd guess the rest of their 'answers' are of the same informative quality, a.k.a. plain garbage.
Maybe is mistake or they talk about for some internal parts of the mount, I don't know, but that is the info that I have directly quoted.
Here is some more about A58:
Has the performance of the AF sensor been improved? The same AF sensor as the α57 is used.
How does Lock-on AF differ from earlier subject tracking features? It is now possible to detect the size of the subject. Focusing performance is greatly enhanced.
Is tracking performance more advanced than with the α57? Focusing performance has been enhanced by making it possible to detect the size of objects.
Was the imaging element newly developed? Yes.
Was the image processing engine newly developed? It is the same as that of the α77, 65 and 57.
Why is Continuous Shooting performance less than with the α57? This comes from the overall balance between the number of pixels and Continuous Shooting speed, which is based on the marketability of this model.
Is shooting affected at all by internal temperature rises in the camera? How does it compare to the α57? When shooting continuously for long periods of time, the camera's temperature can rise and adversely affect picture quality. We recommend in this situation to wait until the temperature drops before taking more pictures. In any case, Continuous shooting time is longer than the α57.
How is the α58 positioned? It is a high performance, reasonably priced model that will satisfy customers who use a digital camera with interchangeable lenses for the first time as well as customers looking to replace an existing camera. The body is compact and lightweight, and the grip is shaped to ensure easy holding and posturing. Also, in addition to an improved Tru-Finder that delivered the Continuous Shooting performance liked with the α57 and the ability to check images before and after shooting, the camera comes with Lock-on AF and Auto Object Framing that make it easy for first-time users of an SLR camera to take good pictures.
Can we call the α58 an SLR camera? I venture to say that it is positioned as a camera that is more technologically advanced than a digital SLR camera.
We think that this model adequately delivers the picture quality seen before with SLR cameras.
How has movie recording been improved? We enabled the 60i recording of AVCHD for seamless movies, and 24 p shooting that captures movies at the same frame rate as movie films. Moreover, ISO, aperture and SS can be changed while shooting when using MF and the movie mode (position on the exposure mode dial).
What manual settings are available for movie recording? The P, A, S and M modes are available when using MF. Exposure Correction, WB, Creative Style and Picture Effects (some) can be set.
Which model is the α58 successor to? We look at it as the successor to the α57.
Which factory will the camera be made by? Sony Technology (Thailand) Co., Ltd. (Chonburi)
If Sony are down to 6% odd market share (including NEX) that is a significant decline on their previous SLR position. The only figures I heard them band around was grabbing something like 15-20% of the Euro market for DSLR's (back in the A200-350 era)
Even if that was quite a bit less worldwide you could estimate it might have been around 10% odd, so in effect they are losing ground (at least with SLT's)
As for crop sensors there is a market for them of course, but I think that many (non action/wildlife) shooters will be lured into full frame (I would myself consider it more sensible at that price point v a crop sensor camera) I'd imagine a majority of users would feel the same too.
I think at £1100 the D7100 is priced too high and whilst it will drop down in a few months it would be hard to imagine crop sensors over a period of a few years commanding the price premiums they used to. Even if Canon do a 7dMkII with a high price it will probably be the last really expensive crop sensor camera.
All of this leaves Sony in a no win situation, by downgrading their A58 they are making it even less appealing than the previous models were to buyers, they will have nothing up to date or mid range enough for some buyers (like an updated A65) and Sony are refusing to price cut the A77 down to a more realistic price (currently at £800 odd) A99 same story still at £2100 body only they are not responding to the market rivals.
My prediction for 2013 is that Sony will lose even more market share on SLT's, and unless they heavily cut the price of the A99 they will get wiped out in full frame too. A new A77 might turn up, but the current A77 has hardly set sales records on fire so it is unlikely that an updated model even with a better sensor will do any damage to Canikon. Canon are due to update their 60d and 7d this year as well as the usual 650d update too. I can't see Sony being able to compete with that (well they're not even trying IMO) so it will not come as a shock to me if end of the year they produce their last SLT models.
I hope I am wrong, but Sony's strategy is completely at odds with what is happening around them. The big push is full frame and they are not even on the starting blocks with the A99 price so high. This will be a tough year for Sony for A mount and I can see the obvious mistakes they are making. Whilst the A58 is only a budget model it's also a lot less appealing than it should be, cheaping out with a plastic mount is just another reason buyers will ignore it.
And it's too late to rejuvenate the A700 and A900 cameras, which could have put Sony in a position where they at least were fighting a bit (imagine an A850 updated a bit as a budget FF offering) Things could have been so different but this is what happens when people run a camera division who simply do not understand the market they are in.
Sony are in a lot of trouble, their botched PS4 launch sent shares into a nose dive they have a lot of thinking to do and even in that market the party is over. Sony owned the home entertainment market with the PS and PS2 but managed to throw it all away by not responding to competitors effectively. It will be a long hard road for Sony in every market, it is not inconceivable that down the road the company could not even be around in any serious form 10-15 years from now. They will be keen to cut costs even more, and that could mean A mount which is evidently loss making goes to the wall
Just because a camera has a flange bayonet fishplate made of plastic doesn’t really qualify it as a plastic mount to the same degree as the replacement of the entire thing with plastic, industrial grade or not, direct screw head compression will affect plastic more than metal, especially over time.
Actually there is a danger of compression micro-fractures developing around each screw head during normal stresses placed on the mounting, (especially if they need to be tightened as the screws loose tension due to compression) once each screw head is encircled by a through fracture it’s undocking time.
My A100 has the same plastic bayonet fishplate and at high magnification through a 10X loupe one can see plastic hair (abrasion) on the leading edge ramps of the flanges. The ‘hairs’ are very small but seem to be attached, I have never seen anything on the sensor that could be one of those and have never experienced any problems with my A100 in any department including the lens mount. The A700 has a fully machined mount that includes the bayonet flanges, no plastic.
Obviously the plastic fishplate bayonet flange idea started right at the beginning and only selected cameras got the fully machined mount, probably the A900 and A850 also.
Greg
Although I'm not overly impressed with the plastic mount either, it does at least appear to be a replacable component and therefore shouldn't compromise the longevity of the camera to any degree.
Someone on the Dyxum forums actually has an A58 in his possession and is giving very positive reports with regard to a lack of high frame rate 'slide show' effect, high ISO performance, exposure bracketing options, focusing etc.
None of us can predict what a company like Sony (or Canon, Nikon et al) may or may not do in the future but I believe they are committed to a future with the A mount. Why else would they develop the A99, a new hot shoe mount and new revised lenses?
As for Sony matching Canon and Nikon sales; most people buy Canikon because they are 'proper' photographer brands and therefore they will also be considered 'proper' photographers by association. However, the more sensible photographer will buy what suits his/her purposes best and remain totally unconcerned about the perceptions of others.
mixxer wrote:Although I'm not overly impressed with the plastic mount either, it does at least appear to be a replacable component and therefore shouldn't compromise the longevity of the camera to any degree.
I wonder how much Sony charges to change the plastic lens mount in a camera? I think their repair and part prices are generally pretty high, aren't they?
dynax800si wrote:Maybe is mistake or they talk about for some internal parts of the mount, I don't know, but that is the info that I have directly quoted.
Their text is a bit of quite intentional lie, then a bit of nonsense, then adds some plain ignorance, etc... Whoever cares what it really is?! Nonsense it is either way.
And I thank you for quoting, but you may see their terminal inadequacy expressed directly in their own words. They spit out false info while trying to prove the obviously wrong point.
mixxer wrote:Although I'm not overly impressed with the plastic mount either, it does at least appear to be a replacable component and therefore shouldn't compromise the longevity of the camera to any degree.
I wonder how much Sony charges to change the plastic lens mount in a camera? I think their repair and part prices are generally pretty high, aren't they?
I get your point but they should be easy enough for owners to replace and you never know, cheap copies might become available on ebay.
How does someone have the A58 already when the camera is not even available to buy? I find that quite interesting (I'm not saying they don't but what's their relationship/story with Sony?)
I take a dim view of any company that cheaps out that much. I would not entertain such a move and I can't imagine it would go down well with potential buyers either. Are Sony so desperate to save some money they have to plastic the lens mount, something no other maker is willing to do? It's bad enough they gave up the hot shoe cover and rear lens cap, this is a new low in Sony cash savings! I've no problems blasting them for it either..the last cheap camera with a plastic mount was a LOT cheaper than £499 with a kit lens, try £150 odd.
