End of the road for the 580?

[Greg Beetham]

Ok here are a few EVF demerits off the top of my head, (some gathered from other user reports and some educated guesswork, you are welcome to dispute anything you see as incorrect)
One is you can look through the camera with an OVF that’s turned off but not one with an EVF, admittedly both are paperweights without a battery these days but at least you can see through an EVF camera to frame and compose etc provided the camera is in MF at the time, in any case with an OVF camera the start-up time is almost instant anyway, not so with an EVF camera.
Another one of the problems with EVF’s is that they consume extra power while an OVF doesn’t.
Because a camera that has an EVF consumes so much power the maker has to make decisions about how big the graphics system can be in terms of trade offs too other things that are happening at the same time, a camera with an OVF doesn’t have those issues hence no lag and no slow (warm up the EVF) start-up time, or system slowdown/gaps due to processing to memory and updating the EVF at the same time while keeping power consumption down, so extra power consumption is in my view a markdown for EVF’s.
Much has been said about EVF’s being able to pre-show the photo in advance, but by all accounts this is not completely true, not enough dynamic range in the EVF to show detail in darker shadows that you could see with an OVF, and supposedly differences in colour representation between what is seen and what the camera produces, and apparently problems with bright highlights (so someone claimed) none of which are issues with an OVF.
There is apparently a more serious issue with EVF’s when shooting fast moving subjects, it is claimed by some users that the delay between what is seen in the EVF and where the subject actually is in real time can be enough to misaim and spoil the shot, there is no such issue with the speed of light OVF.
If you are carrying an EVF camera and the proximity sensor turns the camera on frequently there is a strong possibility that it will consume much more power than the same thing happening using an OVF camera.
There apparently are problems with EVF blackout in a studio situation if the light level is low and non system flash is used.

But in any case I don’t really care about EVF problems, the bottom line is that the choice of either is no longer available, and even more ominous for FF users, how long will it be before they are even able to say no to a power consuming EVF/SLT FF thingy, I think if you like an uncertain future by all means buy Sony (verifiable by looking at the haphazard past).
Just because Sony announced the 500/4 G (it doesn’t cost much to announce it) doesn’t mean much too me at the price it’s at, the proof in the pudding will be when they replace the mock-up with the real thing and a few independent reviews are done. Apparently they are promoting the A77 as a great action cam combo in conjunction with that lens, it will be interesting to see how many people agree with that idea when everything in the viewfinder is moving fifteen times faster, and also how many buy the FF DSLT whenever it materializes and pony’s up for that lens as well.
Greg

[alphaomega]

Greg, you are absolutely right in every point you bring up - if these are important to you and greatly override the advantages of the new technology.
On the other hand I am only interested in investing in the NEX-7 to add to my increasing collection of Sony cameras (A700, A350, A550, A580 and NEX-5).
I am looking at image quality combined with decreasing weight and bulk - simple as that.
I happened to pass the local Jessops here in Glasgow this morning and they had the NEX-7 on display. After adjustments I must say that turning the camera with standard 17-55 zoom in the darkened shop
I did not notice any delay
I did not notice any lag
The image was clear and well defined
The focusing was fast
The camera was easy to hold and comfortable (and light)
The rear display was clear and easy to see and taking the camera to the eye immediately switched viewing to the EVF
So for humble me this is the camera of my choice when the price drops say £100 to around £900 for body only.
There is no point in making the gripes of OVF fans universal to the whole population. Sony's success will depend on how many they can persuade to move to EVF viewing as the technology improves. From my perspective the current EVF in the A77/65/NEX-7 is good enough. If they can improve in a FF SLT version with larger viewing area and a response rate that makes shooting as fast as that provided by a DSLR requiring mirror up/down they may be on to something. Who knows. There will still be the "die hard" OVF adherents, but only time will show how many. Meantime I am convinced that Sony are pursuing the right strategy in the long term. The tactics may be faulty by switching off from OVF too soon. On the other hand there is no point in delaying the inevitable. The OVF brigade deserve to get the signal to get out before they invest even more in what is for them a doomed system. Follow Barry if you do not like what you see. He is as right as those who decide to follow Sony's path. It is simply down to your choice.

[edrice]

Ah, thank you, Greg. It's all coming back to me.

There were apparently a lot of "apparently's" in that compilation which leads me to think this list is not generated as one who has shot with an EVF for a year and a half and is instead compiled from perpetuated snarkings in forums around the net.

There is not one thing in that list that has been an issue for me over the past 1.5 years. My only concern first going in before acquiring the A55 that could potentially have been an issue, albeit a minor one, was battery power being burnt up by the viewfinder. That proved to be just another trumped up beef in practical field usage after shooting on long all-day hikes in the Sierras with my now departed A55 without a battery swap. On the longest day it was depleted to about 1/4 reserve whereas previous cameras may have had 1/3 left. I always carry a spare anyway so this was not a real concern, but it was pleasant surprise to me to find that most of the hype on the net was just that - hype. Which tells me that I have to be very careful about hearsay.

Another initial concern was the sense that looking through an EVF the images were going to be mediocre but that evaporated upon seeing the actual quality of the images. It only took a couple of shooting sessions for that sense to disappear but now with the A65 I rarely get it at all. However I do weigh the above against seeing a gorgeous image in an OVF and not getting what I expected and will happily take the former over the latter for the resulting uplifting emotional and psychological effects. This experience has given perspective and I'm starting to understand why some of the most hardcore OVF users are so crabby.

As for the balance of the complaints, for the last year and a half I have failed to notice that any of these were problems and had no idea I was supposed to be upset about them. They just haven't risen to the level of comment, so I'll likely just have to press happily on in my own naive way. Me and Sony.

BTW, I do also have the A580. Great camera!

Ed

[alphaomega]

David Kilpatrick has a substantial and detailed discussion about Sony and EVF here (as well as other interesting things about lenses, their coatings and AF systems.
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/03/1 ... vf-future/
Well worth a read. Essentially he seems to have got the same message that EVF is "in" and "OVF" out as far as Sony are concerned.

Although Sony did not attend Focus on Imaging 2012, the UK website TechRadar secured an interview statement during Focus week, in which Paul appears to have confirmed without ambiguity that the future was EVF-only, and that the forthcoming full frame successor to the Alpha 900 would be an SLT-EVF design. At the same time, we learn that the 70-200mm SSM G and 70–400mm SSM G lens are to be revised for 2013.

Here is the Techradar article http://www.techradar.com/news/photograp ... ly-1070088
So it does look like the end of the road for Sony OVF cameras.

[Dr. Harout]

Ok here are a few EVF demerits off the top of my head, (some gathered from other user reports and some educated guesswork, you are welcome to dispute anything you see as incorrect)
One is you can look through the camera with an OVF that’s turned off but not one with an EVF, admittedly both are paperweights without a battery these days but at least you can see through an EVF camera to frame and compose etc provided the camera is in MF at the time, in any case with an OVF camera the start-up time is almost instant anyway, not so with an EVF camera.
Another one of the problems with EVF’s is that they consume extra power while an OVF doesn’t.
Because a camera that has an EVF consumes so much power the maker has to make decisions about how big the graphics system can be in terms of trade offs too other things that are happening at the same time, a camera with an OVF doesn’t have those issues hence no lag and no slow (warm up the EVF) start-up time, or system slowdown/gaps due to processing to memory and updating the EVF at the same time while keeping power consumption down, so extra power consumption is in my view a markdown for EVF’s.
Much has been said about EVF’s being able to pre-show the photo in advance, but by all accounts this is not completely true, not enough dynamic range in the EVF to show detail in darker shadows that you could see with an OVF, and supposedly differences in colour representation between what is seen and what the camera produces, and apparently problems with bright highlights (so someone claimed) none of which are issues with an OVF.
There is apparently a more serious issue with EVF’s when shooting fast moving subjects, it is claimed by some users that the delay between what is seen in the EVF and where the subject actually is in real time can be enough to misaim and spoil the shot, there is no such issue with the speed of light OVF.
If you are carrying an EVF camera and the proximity sensor turns the camera on frequently there is a strong possibility that it will consume much more power than the same thing happening using an OVF camera.
There apparently are problems with EVF blackout in a studio situation if the light level is low and non system flash is used.

But in any case I don’t really care about EVF problems, the bottom line is that the choice of either is no longer available, and even more ominous for FF users, how long will it be before they are even able to say no to a power consuming EVF/SLT FF thingy, I think if you like an uncertain future by all means buy Sony (verifiable by looking at the haphazard past).
Just because Sony announced the 500/4 G (it doesn’t cost much to announce it) doesn’t mean much too me at the price it’s at, the proof in the pudding will be when they replace the mock-up with the real thing and a few independent reviews are done. Apparently they are promoting the A77 as a great action cam combo in conjunction with that lens, it will be interesting to see how many people agree with that idea when everything in the viewfinder is moving fifteen times faster, and also how many buy the FF DSLT whenever it materializes and pony’s up for that lens as well.
Greg

Greg, I haven't noticed your mentioned problems, yet, maybe I should try more.
If you go back in this site's old pages you'll see me mentioning quite a few times that I would never go back to EVF, that I have used it once and wont make the same mistake again.
And yet, I am "repeating" the same mistake now with the a77...
BTW, whenever you push the DoF button in front of the camera (or from the lens, if there is one and programmed from the menu to do so) you'll see not the same picture you were seeing while shooting, but the final shot that you will get when you push the button. So, in fact, you have a real view of what you will get.
I read somewhere else that the reviewing of the shot within the EVF is a burden and making a problem to concentrate on the shot... no problem, just turn off the review from the menu
I guess I am well "tamed" to the EVF now, specially when it is much much much easier to view through it than through the a700's OVF with my aging sight.
Over 40-45? Opt for EVF. And this I insist not just as a user, but as a physician as well.
I am sure with the next FF we will have a much better EVF.
Anyway, I have a question: are we after a vf or after the product of a photographic tool?
Greg, my friend, try the a77 and you'll love it.

[Dr. Harout]

BTW, I'm trying to sell my a700 (with just 11K shots), with no luck yet (it's not Canikon and has no video...).

[mvanrheenen]

BTW, I'm trying to sell my a700 (with just 11K shots), with no luck yet (it's not Canikon and has no video...).

I have had the same problem with my Sony stuff, except for the NEX lens.

[bfitzgerald]

Well reading DK's article a few things struck me. Sony again refused to "rule out" OVF's..but we can translate this "Sony left all options open but the EVF design was likely to be the way ahead. What he has not said directly to me is that conventional SLR design – Optical View Finder – was off the roadmap"

Seems like something along the lines of those cardboard D-Day tanks and "phantom" divisions which don't really exist but can be called upon if needed

Folks OVF is out at Sony and the company should make that very clear to it's users (rather than this refuse to accept/deny) stuff.
I strongly encourage OVF fan's to abandon A Mount for your own sanity. But I'll go one further, Sony are in a no man's land for me they've ripped off bits of Canon with their body style, bits off other makers, and don't really have an identity (well to me) they're a kind of generic camera maker now. So even if the A77 was OVF I'd still not really be interested in Sony it's gone past a game and now it's indifference I'm afraid!

[NevHi]

Yes Barry, it DOES show in ALL your recent posts (last twelve months or so ). Time to abandon SONY forums and go off to which ever Nikon forum(s) will give you voice. Nikon at all levels is bound not to be "perfect" so you can now berate Nikon for not listening to all your design ideas and perceived faults. Still haven't said where you will be off to when Nikon abandon OVF in their top end cameras which you were not going to buy in any case. I see a manual focus (no coatings) film mover some where in your future!

[bfitzgerald]

Actually there are things I don't like about Nikon (esp low end they cripple the hell out of their models)
I try to take a spectator viewpoint most times, good and bad from all makers. It's just Sony would probably be worse for my own personal choice than other makers.

We're not looking for perfection it doesn't exist. But even on the new models Sony's lousy jpeg engine is still there is all it's glory...so tell me how many years does it take to get on top of that one? That's just one point and you can work around that if you want to. Point remains valid though Sony just can't seem to "nail it" even in the basic areas at times. Yet they put so much effort into such trivial areas such as moving the power switch, or smile detection. So forgive me if I take them less than seriously..but even the most die hard Sony fan would have to admit, it's been a bit of a roller-coaster ride with Alpha. I think that's part of the problem, never really sure what direction to take. A well known politician once said that if you stand in the middle of the road you tend to get hit by traffic coming from both directions.

[edrice]

I strongly encourage OVF fan's to abandon A Mount for your own sanity.

What really taxes sanity is coming in here for the last year and a half and still reading the same thing over and over. OVF and flipping mirrors were necessary in the film days but film for all practical purposes is GONE. There is no logical reason to keep them around with film gone.

[bfitzgerald]

Maybe we should all head over to Dyxum where they've now decided to stop all discussions about OVF's

Wonder how much Sony paid them to pull that stunt!
It's a personal preference and nothing more than that. As DK's article says Sony need to get rid of the mirror (and that removes at least one potential objection)
As for one generation away I think that is a tad optimistic myself.

[Greg Beetham]

Yes alphaomege the entrance door at Nikon and Canon does look rather inviting now as they still make DSLR’s, albeit ones that have the dreaded video disease just the same. I’m not convinced about the NEX for some things, like bird photography for instance, or on the sideline at a sport event, but for lots of other things I think it would be fine. (Sony needs to lift its game with lenses for E-mount though)
And yes lots of apparentlys edrice, not much choice with that list as that is just a compilation basically of what others have said who have used EVF’s or who claimed they did, and some conjecture on my part as well for good measure.
I know I have a ‘thing’ about battery life but here it’s a long way between wall sockets if you go into a remote location, one can still do that here, go places where there are no towns within hundreds of kilometres in any direction, just empty countryside and a dirt road. I took my KM5D into such a remote setting with no way to charge the batteries for nine days (I think), admittedly I didn’t have the camera turned on all day, only a few times when I needed it, but I do habitually leave the rear screen on for looking at the photo just taken and I also left AF turned on (realistically I should have turned both of those off and maybe AS as well) but anyway the battery in the camera lasted the whole time and I only needed the spare on the way home, I thought that was pretty good. (I did have the A100 and its two batteries along as well…just in case, in fact it was a sort of shared duty between the two, I didn’t use the KM5D exclusively, it was basically whichever one had the right lens on at the time around the camp, but in the boat fishing all day each day from dawn til nearly dusk it was just the KM5D).
I doubt that the latest cameras have that kind of duration but then it would not be reasonable to expect they would with the extra overheads, that’s why I have been looking at ways to charge the battery from a camera out in a remote setting, I did find a company that makes solar panels for that kind of thing the last time I searched so it’s a problem that can be addressed if need be.
Thanks Doc if you think and say the EVF is easier to use than an OVF for aging eyesight maybe I should give one more consideration as my eyesight isn’t getting any younger that’s for sure…but in any case I don’t see any great urgency, I have three cameras that take photos ok, probably not as good as the latest ones in some respects, but still seem ok to me, maybe if one of them died I’d seriously have to think about what to do on a more urgent basis.
Greg

[Dr. Harout]

Interesting reading: http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co.nz/ ... nical.html

[bakubo]

Doc, thanks for posting. Interesting write-up. By the way, he is in my hometown of Austin, Texas.

Here is more interesting stuff he has written:

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co.nz/ ... ality.html

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co.nz/ ... -with.html