Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

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robsphotography
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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby robsphotography » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:45 pm

Lonnie Utah wrote:
Sonolta wrote:and it COSTS THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS which is TWO THOUSAND more dollars than the a700!


Easy solution. Get your wonderful girlfriend to buy you one. That's what I did! ;) :D


Yes, good idea, but I can understand the cost issue! This was referred to several times in this thread:

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/sony-a900-d ... 49214.html

I guess you have to consider whether the purchaser is a professional photographer or an amateur. In my case, I am an amateur photographer and I bought an A900 instead of a flash new car! So I enjoy photohraphy as a hobby more than owning a Rolls Royce! But if you earn a living from photography, it seems that owning a full frame camera is high on the list of projects to seriously consider!

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Rob
http://www.robsphotography.co.nz/Sony-A900.html

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby robsphotography » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:29 pm

Sonolta wrote:
robsphotography wrote:Yes, good idea, but I can understand the cost issue! This was referred to several times in this thread:

DK wrote an article on the subject right here at Photoclubalpha...

Do you really need an Alpha 900?

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/10/1 ... alpha-900/

DK's forum speaks on the subject...

"My view is that the A900 is pretty hard to pay for from freelance fees. An outfit can cost you 1/4 of a typical year's salary - employed salary for many people - especially if you want three serious lenses. In the past it was not too difficult to cover high expenditures because fees for photos were high, but they no longer are. Commercially, I should still be using the A100 - it provided the quality needed, and it cost very little. I would say only go for FF and the A900 if you can afford to do so without any worry at all about the cost.

If I was not running this site and Photoworld magazine, I would not buy one. I will do so, and no doubt enjoy using and get better pix, but otherwise we would be getting a second A700 body instead and that would be end of our investment in DSLRs until they wore out."


-Sonolta


Thanks for this reference, it's an excellent article, I have added in a link to it on the A900 page of my site. I liked the section headed “Point of no return” in which it is concluded that, once you have used the A900, you will forget your APS-C gear because there is no going back!

Although I still use smaller cameras from time to time, I am increasingly lugging the A900 around because I guess I have also reached the “point of no return”!

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Rob
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Lonnie Utah
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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:01 pm

I think the point here, at least for me, is that past a certain point, all cameras today take outstanding photographs at a fraction of the cost of what it used to (if you consider film and processing).

The only real question left unanswered is "How good is good?" If you look at the cost of the A900, it's a ton. Is it worth it? I thought so, others do not.

However, as with any electronic device, that price will come down. "I" paid quite the premium for stepping out to a full frame setup. I understand that. BUT, by doing so, it will lower the over all cost for everyone in the future.

Anyway, that's my humble opinion anyway...

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby robsphotography » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

Sonolta wrote:"Point of no return" is 100% relative....

Snip …..

Honestly, without video, without LV, without a solid JPG engine, without top notch noise control, and with a limited frame rate, and a limited feature set I am sorry to say the a900 is nowhere near my "point of no return".

-Sonolta


People have debated almost endlessly on lots of internet forums whether an A900 is worth its relatively high price tag. So, all I can say, is that I fully respect the decisions of others with regard to what they are prepared to purchase, whether it be a camera, a helicopter, or a car! So it’s not worth opening up this hoary old debate again, because A900 owners seem to be delighted with their cameras, and many non A900 owners will, for one perfectly good reason or another, never want to buy an A900.

But if you have actually purchased a Sony A900, it’s really good having discussions with other A900 owners about the “real life” experiences they have with this camera, whether they are positive or negative!

Incidentally, I don’t miss “live view” and I certainly don’t miss video because I have an excellent camcorder. Also, it doesn’t worry me that the Sony A900 doesn’t include an FM radio, a GPS, a phone and a MP3 music player! And the best quality JPEGS from the A900 are so good that I seldom bother with shooting in RAW, but I fully respect the reasons why some DSLR owners (of all brands) always shoot in RAW.

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Rob
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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby robsphotography » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am

Lonnie Utah wrote:I think the point here, at least for me, is that past a certain point, all cameras today take outstanding photographs at a fraction of the cost of what it used to (if you consider film and processing).

The only real question left unanswered is "How good is good?" If you look at the cost of the A900, it's a ton. Is it worth it? I thought so, others do not.

However, as with any electronic device, that price will come down. "I" paid quite the premium for stepping out to a full frame setup. I understand that. BUT, by doing so, it will lower the over all cost for everyone in the future.

Anyway, that's my humble opinion anyway...


Hello Lonnie

Nice to hear from you, I fully agree with the points you make above. I also own a few other smaller and less capable cameras than the A900 and, occasionally, I leave the A900 at home and take a smaller camera out with me. But, when I want the very best results, I take the A900 with me, so I guess it’s “horses for courses”!

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Rob
http://www.robsphotography.co.nz

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby destrianlives » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:36 am

As for the actual topic... which has spun totally off point and nearly out of control. I bought the A900 for the detail within massive crops because my lil connection was used to getting Hassleblad, 1DS Mark III and Leaf size images. They wouldve had me a rent a MF system or buy a Canon system. I was already built into the Minolta mount so I naturally stayed. The image quality does sing for my PONR (Point Of No Return). I'd be doing heavy amounts of studio ligthing so fast fps wasnt as important (Hassleblads if I recall dont hit 5fps with digital backs yet.) Since my mag contacts have been very impressed with the image quality I've brought in since it... my PONR has been reached and I am satisfied with the fine detail of the A900.

If however I was looking for speed... Nikon D3
Image quality... Hassleblad with 60mp digital back!!!
Hi ISO... Nikon D3
You just cant have all the camera you want in one camera. A900 it is.
Check out my free lighting articles at http://www.studiolighting.net and search for "David Griffin" or The Prince of Cheap

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby robsphotography » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:14 am

destrianlives wrote:As for the actual topic... which has spun totally off point and nearly out of control. I bought the A900 for the detail within massive crops because my lil connection was used to getting Hassleblad, 1DS Mark III and Leaf size images. They wouldve had me a rent a MF system or buy a Canon system. I was already built into the Minolta mount so I naturally stayed. The image quality does sing for my PONR (Point Of No Return). I'd be doing heavy amounts of studio ligthing so fast fps wasnt as important (Hassleblads if I recall dont hit 5fps with digital backs yet.) Since my mag contacts have been very impressed with the image quality I've brought in since it... my PONR has been reached and I am satisfied with the fine detail of the A900.

If however I was looking for speed... Nikon D3
Image quality... Hassleblad with 60mp digital back!!!
Hi ISO... Nikon D3
You just cant have all the camera you want in one camera. A900 it is.


Thanks very much for an interesting post, and I enjoyed looking through your lighting articles, they are most informative. Yes, the fine detail of the Sony A900 is very impressive and I agree with your comment about cropping. I have enjoyed taking advantage of the A900’s high megapixel count by making decent-sized prints from quite heavily cropped images. For example, I have made a very good quality 19-inch wide print of the tiger picture on the top of the following page:

http://www.robsphotography.co.nz/Sumatran-Tiger.html

The above tiger image is a crop, and has an image size of 3024 pixels x 2016 pixels, which is exactly half the width and height of the original image. So, although I avoid cropping unless it’s really necessary, with the above example, because I couldn’t get any closer to the tiger, the highly cropped image still enabled me to get a good 19-inch wide print, which to me, is quite remarkable really!

I agree with your conclusion that it’s very difficult to get all the features you want in one camera. But overall, I came to the same decision as you have, that the A900 satisfies most of my current photographic needs.

Regards
Rob

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby pakodominguez » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:45 pm

Sonolta wrote:This thread is becoming a big fat a900 fanboy joke....The OP keeps dropping link after link to his own threads in other forums, and to his a900 web pages!
-Sonolta

Don,
It took you TOOOOO LONG to understand it...
:-/
the tiger pic will have more rez if taken (and framed better) with the A700 and the same lens.
whatever, no new pics of pom-pom girls on your stock?
;-)

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:51 pm

You guys miss the point I am trying to make.

The point is not that the 900 might have some issues that won't work for some people. The point is that with the introduction of the A900 and other full frame high MP cameras, and given enough time, 24 MP will become the new 11 MP. 4 years ago, people thought 11 MP was insane, now it's the "standard". And I am willing to bet the price will come down on cameras of those resolutions to boot.

If you don't think sony (and all the other manufactures) will work the bugs out, you are mistaken.

You can be an early adaptor or a late adaptor, it is your choice.

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby rush2112 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:08 pm

Don,

I really wish you would quit referring to me at all in any of your replies. I don't know why you must continue to spread your opinion of what our site is or your opinion of me is over and over and over again.

I have completely quit referring to you in any sort of manner in any forum for quite some time now despite me seeing various threads here and other places in which you continue to sarcastically refer to me however you wish.

Out of respect for you and your opinions I have done this, despite the fact that you and I obviously disagree on many topics. Dare I ask you to do the same?

This is me asking you nicely to please cease your rants about me and OUR website (there are more than one person(s) that run AMW).

I'd appreciate the same professional respect that I have been giving you. What is in the past has been in the past for me for quite some time now.

Thank you in advance,

Carl

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby rush2112 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:36 pm

Ok.

Carl

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:39 pm

Sonolta wrote:It's missing a ton of features, a quality JPG engine, and it's frame rate can not keep up with many other cameras, it's high ISO can be improved, etc, etc.


Again, these are all technical issues that can, and will be solved going forward.

Sonolta wrote:No it won't...we are approaching the point of diminishing returns with high MP counts on this sensor format. Lens quality can not keep up, diffraction becomes an issue, noise control becomes an issue, frame rate become an issue...etc.etc.etc.


You are wrong. Resolution will only continue increase. As a result, we will see new lens, image processing technology IN THE BODY and printing technologies, that will allow these resolutions to become not only practical, but affordable for the AVERAGE consumer. We are all basing the need for camera resolution based on 150-300 DPI printing. Well, what happens when I make a 600 DPI printer? All of these technologies are interrelated.

Sonolta wrote:24MP is beyond what most of need or want and that is the facts jack.


Well, that is a matter of opinion. You can make a technical case for what people NEED (although in reality, it is still just opinion). You cannot make a technical arguement for what people WANT. I don't think Sony is having any problems selling the 900, simply on the 24 mp # alone. There are alway people that have to have the biggest and "the best" (again opinion), this camera is made for them. The Corvette isn't the best made car in the world, it's expensive, it's totally impratical for most people, but it is fast and people buy just because of that.

You can be an early adaptor or a late adaptor, it is your choice.

Sonolta wrote:Like I said before...24MP FF will NOT be the standard (at least for a very, very long time). It might be a standard if you want resolution only and you want to use a DSLR and not a MF camera. But if you want a tool for almost every job a great 12-16MP FF offering with great high ISO, a faster frame rate, live view, and video will be the camera the suits most people just fine in the future.


I am guessing the time frame is two to three years for most folks to be well on their way to converting to 24+MP full frame cameras. "Full" adaption within 5 (24MP will standard, with some holdouts). All of these other issues you mention can be overcome with engineering. All engineering issues can be solved with enough time and $$.

Why would manufactures push full frame cameras? For exactly the reason you stated. Money. What a great way for you to spend a ton of cash? Convince you that you need to buy this great new toy. Oh, guess what, all of your old lenses and accessories are now obsolete. I'm sorry, you will have to buy new ones. This has been happening in electronics for years. Black and white TV, Color, 19", 25", Projection, HDTV, Plasma, LCD.... Video tape (beta/vhs), DVD's, MP4's, Blue Ray. Records, tapes, CD, MP3's. How many times I have I bought the same music or movie in a different format? It's simple marketing, and why all of the manufactures will push high MP full frame cameras while phasing out older models. It's about $$$.
Last edited by Lonnie Utah on Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:29 pm

Ok, let's just make this simple.








You are right.








About Everything.












Always.

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:45 pm

Sonolta wrote:The key for making $$$ on Sony SLR's is selling lenses and accessories, not 24MP FF bodies. This is why they are trying to get a Sony low end DSLR in every woman and child's hands. If Sony wanted to make more $$$ on bodies then they would offer D3, D700, and 5DMKII equivalents and that would draw many more users, and compel many more system conversions. I suppose Sony does not yet posses technology or the experience or the money to do this so that is why you see them playing the MP race game offer limited features game and not much in the high end. Sony also needs to expand the lens lineup to include true quiet focus lenses, a TnS lineup, a full macro accessory lineup, and they also need to fill out the existing lineup in addition to adding more usable FF bodies and advanced APS-C models.

-Sonolta


Sonolta,

I think we are coming to a common understanding/agreement. Do you remember Betamax? Who introduced that? Oh, yeah, it was SONY! Do you think they learned a lesson from that? You betcha.....

I guess my point is this. Sony is new to the camera game. They are going up against some VERY WELL established, and highly regarded companies/competitors in Nikon/Cannon (argueably superior). Betamax was arguably superior to VHS, yet sony lost that battle. What they learned from that is the only way to "win" the game, is market penetration. Do I really need to go much farther? I think you have already made the points I am headed towards.... :)

Anyway, just my ramblings, as usual...

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Re: Amazing amount of fine detail captured by the Sony Alpha 900

Unread postby pakodominguez » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:26 pm

Lonnie Utah wrote:I think we are coming to a common understanding/agreement. Do you remember Betamax? Who introduced that? Oh, yeah, it was SONY! Do you think they learned a lesson from that? You betcha.....

Well, I think Sony did learn THAT lesson: look what happened with the Blue Ray and all the technology behind.

Now, talking (video)dSRL... well, lets see what happens in September -they have a challenge with this low light event and with all the speculation about A500/A550/A850, we will probably get an answer on how fast Sony learns.

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