Are we headed to a mirrorless future?

[Lonnie Utah]

I can't predict the future but I'll say "no" and I'll back that up with I'd rather shoot film 100% and scan it then go to a full time EVF system. If Ricoh announced K mount was going to be mirror less only I'd instantly sell everything without a single thought. For the same reason I abandoned Sony though the film element makes me keep some of my A mount stuff.

Read the original post Barry. What I said was that there will still be cameras with mirrors, but they will be pro level or very advanced models. Mirrorless designs will be entry level and prosumer level.

[Dr. Harout]

...Or they may remain no camera with mirror for some years... and someone someday will re-invent a camera with a flipping mirror

[agorabasta]

Have been telling it for years: you don't need to flip the mirror!!! Just quietly slide it aside if you don't like it! You may slide it towards the grip - lose no space at all. So a future design could well implement it, if there's enough purists ready to pay for that.

But the problem is that the mirror is absolutely no problem to the image quality - no discernible hit to IQ even at ISO6400 on APSC. And then, it's even possible to have back an OVF at some point in the future exactly through that SLT mirror - just put a matte focusing screen in the plane of AF sensors, and watch it through some simplest optical setup; it won't be a single bit worse than a typical pentamirror OVF, should be better, actually.

So now you all may well imagine all my swears I didn't document here out of pure politesse...

[Greg Beetham]

Agorabasta the grip is where the battery, flash capacitor and memory is located, if you want to allow space for the mirror to move sideways where are you proposing to move those items too? Not only that but the mirror box projects forward of the finger recess that’s between the grip and mirror box, that whole area would have to become a housing for the slide rails and gear train for moving the mirror sideways, thus no longer having a finger recess between the grip and mirror box.
In effect you would have to have a space equal to two mirror boxes side by side for the sideways sliding mirror (an unused space when the mirror isn’t residing there), resulting in a very large increase in the bulk of the camera, I sure hope no camera manufacturer ever seriously considers that one, if they do it would be an overnight flop.
Greg

[agorabasta]

Agorabasta the grip is where the battery, flash capacitor and memory is located, if you want to allow space for the mirror to move sideways where are you proposing to move those items too?

The body would need to be thicker on the grip side, but not beyond the the thickness at the mount, since the mirror sits behind the mount throat.
On a a700-sized body there's more than enough space to park the mirror between its normal position and the grip, no need to even move the grip any farther.

But the more important thing is that the mirror really is no problem whatsoever. My testing with Nex5N and LA-EA2 is quite unequivocal about that.

[alphaomega]

This paragraph by Agorabasta caught my attention

But the more important thing is that the mirror really is no problem whatsoever. My testing with Nex5N and LA-EA2 is quite unequivocal about that.

My next purchase will be that LA-EA2 and I shall use it on my NEX-5 with primarily my Sony 18-250mm zoom. Is there some more information available on the IQ maintenance (or loss) by using LA-EA2 on a NEX? This is a difficult issue as you cannot use the same lens for a test. Essentially my next two purchases will be that LA-EA2 and later on a NEX-7 (when I get a better idea of Sony's future NEX lens releases and their ability to do justice to 24Mp).

[agorabasta]

Is there some more information available on the IQ maintenance (or loss) by using LA-EA2 on a NEX? This is a difficult issue as you cannot use the same lens for a test.

You absolutely can use the same lens for the test. There's the LA-EA1 to compare with. I did it, with SAL18250 there's a light loss of 0.27EV at 250mm, no ghosting, no flare. And there's no discernible noise increase at ISO6400. In fact, one could get some barely discernible image quality hit only at the base ISO, so that ISO100/200 looks like ISO125/250. Still anyway, the 5N ISO100 with LA-EA2 would still stay much better than LA-EA1 ISO200 with the old 5.

[bfitzgerald]

I can't predict the future but I'll say "no" and I'll back that up with I'd rather shoot film 100% and scan it then go to a full time EVF system. If Ricoh announced K mount was going to be mirror less only I'd instantly sell everything without a single thought. For the same reason I abandoned Sony though the film element makes me keep some of my A mount stuff.

Read the original post Barry. What I said was that there will still be cameras with mirrors, but they will be pro level or very advanced models. Mirrorless designs will be entry level and prosumer level.

I did but I whilst it's obvious we'll get mirror less models from other makers I'd be surprised if they are as quick to abandon OVF's as fast as Sony have.
Pro level can mean a lot of different things to people.

[Greg Beetham]

I’d say the camera manufacturers will continue to make whatever there is a market for. Canon obviously thinks there is an ongoing market for large battery grip integral cameras like the 1DX (without the benefit of an EVF). I expect Canon and Nikon will be watching for any groundswell indication that their professional market is in danger from Sony’s SLT excursion, so far I don’t think the event pros are showing any tendencies in that direction. The NEX will probably remain desirable for those who like to fiddle with gadgets and add on bits and pieces, it's actually a more serious and limited kind of niche camera, I wonder how many have bought it thinking it's just an upmarket compact, not realising that it doesn't have the inbuilt range and flexibility of a small sensor compact.
Greg

[alphaomega]

Many thanks for the clarification Agorabasta. Not sure how I managed to figure out you cannot use the same lens to test SLT v. NEX with the same lens. Your results are encouraging for me and my resolve to acquire first the LA-EA2 (for my NEX-5) and then the NEX-7 has strengthened. Whatever good things that can be said about the NEX-5N the fact remains that the NEX-5 is still a good camera as long as one does not need to do fast sports (or bird) photography with the E70-210 fitted. Used this lens Thursday in murky weather photographing ships in the distance and with centre spot the lens managed to focus OK even at the longer end. Just one deletion. Sony's equipment is not bad now to make an understatement.

[alphaomega]

Reference Greg Beetham's points above, I was at a port opening event yesterday and all the pro photographers carried Nikon or Canon. Old equipment but durable D3 and 1Ds type of stuff. They are not running to the nearest store to purchase SLT equipment. They come along in the car and carry the gear for an hour or two - including sitting down in between - and then drive home. On the other hand you have those pro photographers who may be out for a day or even a half moving around. If they find that an SLT or NEX can do the job at maybe half the bulk or weight some of them may switch. Time will show. It is interesting to note that Canon seem to stall at 18Mp for APS-C and now on the new EOS 1DX they are also tracking back to 18Mp leaving the 20+ Mp area to Sony with Nikon picking up some of the new sensors. Once the NEX-7 and SLT 77/65 are stable this could transfer landscape photographers to Sony. Architecture is more difficult until at least a 24mm T&S lens is made available at no more than £1500-2000 a piece.

[agorabasta]

The NEX will probably remain desirable for those who like to fiddle with gadgets and add on bits and pieces, ...

They have every opportunity to come with a full modular E/A camera. That would need a dedicated E-A adapter that nicely blends mechanically with the whole setup, it would also need a VG that is not an awkward option, but a piece of the original full kit. That would be an ultimate thing that really fits the 7-series for both E and A lines.

The greatest obstacle on this way is the sensor heat removal with the sensor-based IS. So for now we may only expect it been done just as an E-mount camera to supercede the Nex7. Once they solve the heat issues, the pure A-mount cams may be history.

[Heidfirst]

and now on the new EOS 1DX they are also tracking back to 18Mp leaving the 20+ Mp area to Sony with Nikon picking up some of the new sensors.

there seems to be an assumption/rumour amongst Canon users that there will be a higher MP version next year to replace the 1DS mkIII many of whose users are unimpressed by the 1DX as announced.
Also suggestions that the 5D MkII replacement will be 30Mp+.

[Greg Beetham]

So far much of what I’ve seen relating to the NEX doesn’t convince me that there is any advantage over a DSLR if you need to use A-mount lenses. You have to pay lots of money for an add-on lens adapter that actually works, and an add-on EVF, (the 7 does come with an inbuilt EVF) basically re-inventing the wheel only more klutzy, it’s a wheel that doesn’t have in body AS or a battery that’s really up to the task.
I think you might have something there though Agorabasta with the E-mount progressing further than just remaining on a NEX style cam. Maybe Sony could develop an E-mount SLR type body with larger battery, (and battery grip) in body AS, and external control layout, the E-mount could be removed if desired in a section back to almost the level of the sensor and replaced with an SLT mirror box and A-mount. Thus converting it from a mirror-less E-mount SLR type (that has the ability to use not only the few E-mount lenses but all the other brand legacy lenses via the E-mount adapters), but also to become a genuine DSLT for use with all A-mount lenses.
I can’t see the E-mount becoming a hybrid DSLT in its own right as the flange to sensor distance is too short for the SLT mirror…I think.
Greg
Ps. I think Sony has been making the rod for its own back in one sense, if they didn’t keep going troppo with MP’s and stay at a given size for a few models they might be able to concentrate on controlling the heat issue.

[alphaomega]

I am heading for a "mirrorless" future. Slowly and gradually. My last DSLR will be my A580. No SLT for me thanks. I have now firmly settled on three different sets of gear on the "horses for courses basis". I just traded in my LX3 for the 24-90mm LX5. This is a phenomenal camera based on my first uses. That will be my go anywhere anytime camera. When I am out for a longer period and need more "reach" than the LX5 can produce I take with me my NEX-5 with 24mm pancake, W/A converter and 18-55 & 55-210 E zooms. That is a light package with plenty of reach and quality. When in the car and can take (or need) heavier gear I have my A580 with Tamron 10-24 and new motor driven 70-300 (fitted to my A550) as well as Sony/CZ 16-80 and 18-250mm. I will get the LA-EA2 converter when firmware for my NEX-5 has been released and in the spring I will also acquire the NEX-7. That will provide me with all the options I require. Whatever has been written about these pieces of equipment, I am content that what I have now can do the job and I am certain I will not be disappointed with the final pieces of the camera/lens jigsaw.