End of the road for the 580?

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edrice
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by edrice »

alphaomega wrote: My personal situation is crystal clear now. I will purchase the NEX-7 when prices drop a bit and focus on E-mount W/A and standard zooms when products appear that can outperform my 16mm pancake, W/A adapter and 18-55mm zoom. The decision to go with NEX-7 (as a final camera purchase) has been further cemented on finding out that Lightroom 4 and CS6 will not work on WinXP SP3. I have no intention of upgrading my PC used for image preparation and storage to Vista or 7. Fortunately NEX-7 is now covered by LR3.6.
I'm doing the same. I have a NEX-7 on pre-order and I see it as my gradual transition away from mirrors altogether. As soon as more lenses become available I will probably sell off most of my A-mount gear, but this will be a gradual process. Some of it will be hard to part with but if I have reasonable substitutes, the path just seems so clear. I'm love the EVF and wouldn't want to go back.

Ed
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bfitzgerald
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

The link to the original article:
http://www.techradar.com/news/photograp ... ly-1070088

Well my views on this are quite clear, but I do think that the FF DSLR users who invested in a system for the big optical viewfinder of the A900/A850 will be disappointed. Some will likely move to other makers too. And worse I simply don't see any kind of pro movement to SLT or EVF type cameras. Therefore I question the logic of Sony's plan, they've instantly alienated a large portion of their FF users in one swoop. This is much more significant at this price point as FF users will be a lot less likely to embrace EVF's, even though the numbers are clearly much smaller than cheaper products. Maybe Sony is aiming for some "FF consumer market" who knows.

Right now I think anyone wavering over this, or users who want OVF's my message is clear, get out of A mount and rapidly too. I pretty much read Sony like a book, I could see as soon as the SLT models turned up that was it for OVF's. So I spent my money elsewhere.

The real issue for Sony is that SLT is not seen as a revolution by most, but a transitional step to no mirror at all. Thus you're buying into the light robbing fixed mirror knowing it's time is limited. That might be fine for some users. But as with any business, you can't afford to ignore a large number of your customers. This is why I've said Sony are arrogant in their pursuit of SLT, they're not listening..and are hell bent of telling folks what they will get, not asking them what they want. Long term this means that Sony will never be in a position to challenge the top 2 makers.

It's a serious business mistake and a very clear one.
gio67
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by gio67 »

since buying the a580 a few months ago i have only used the ovf about 3 times, the advantages of the evf and liveview more than outweigh the advantages of the ovf for me, I will still keep my a700 but have not used it since I got the a580,
i have also bought the nex 5n to replace my panny GF1 but am not sure if this is the right decision as yet

for me live view and evf are the way forward as long as sony do not discontinue the a mount any time soon
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bfitzgerald
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

And you are quite entitled to that view. But you should be aware there are a significant number of users who don't want the EVF and won't buy it/
Let me be frank I had serious doubts about Sony from day 1 (just a gut feeling I am not anti Sony despite the protests of some I have other Sony products I have bought)
The A350 started it..poor OVF for fast AF live view, since Sony brought these models out I felt they would eventually move away from OVF's (the OVF is terrible on these models any company prepared to compromise a VF that much would def abandon it)

As said it's about choice. Not for me I couldn't care less anymore..but even EVF fans will have to admit a choice is a good thing for all. No choice customers will walk away. For me an EVF is more a hindrance than a help and that is the bottom line I'm afraid.
alphaomega
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by alphaomega »

So here we have right above this entry two entirely different reactions to the Sony OVF/EVF situation. One happy to have (almost) left Sony and one happy with EVF and LV.
I am happy with both and will not part with my A550/580 as I gradually move to the E-mount when I need a light burden to carry. As I have said before "it is horses for courses".
I for one is not able to predict if Sony are on the right track. Suffice to say that personnally I am impressed by the EVF installed in the A65/77 combo (from visiting the local Jessops). That being the case I am certain I will be equally happy with the NEX-7 version.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

There are some very active threads on DPR right now on the Sony forum showing a cross section of views on this. And some fairly heated angles as well (from I hate EVF, to SLT all the way go away if you don't like it!)

It's too much yes/no for my taste take it or leave it. I think that is a mistake for Alpha and one I don't think will go down very well with some users. I'm happy in respect of making the choice that was "right for me", and somewhat disappointed that I had to change mount to achieve that. I wanted Sony to carry on some kind of "Minolta vibe" I expected some changes of course, but after handling an A77 and A65 I can say in confidence that these cameras have very little in common with Minolta philosophy some welcome that. Personally I think Sony have tried to hard to kill off the Minolta DNA and done quite a good job of it.

Some folks like Walt simply geared up with A700's to ensure they have enough bodies to work with for years to come. Some just walk away..I hope Dusty finds it easier to make a choice now. What I find very odd though is the insistence by some that OVF users should not have a choice, you can do DSLR and SLT at the same time, and that is the problem here..Sony's way or no way.
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edrice
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by edrice »

bfitzgerald wrote:I wanted Sony to carry on some kind of "Minolta vibe" I expected some changes of course, but after handling an A77 and A65 I can say in confidence that these cameras have very little in common with Minolta philosophy some welcome that. Personally I think Sony have tried to hard to kill off the Minolta DNA and done quite a good job of it.
What with talking navigation systems and new smart TVs (et al) I suppose soon we'll be talking to cameras as well, telling it "f8" or whatever and I'm sure it will talk back and I can well imagine you getting into an argument with one. :D
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by NevHi »

So I wonder what Mr bfitzgerald is saying on whatever Nikon forum(s) he frequents, and to which system he will hop to when Nikon's TOP END also drops OVF in it's next generation (or so). All this CONSTANT negativity, no progression... Where is all this evidence that "professionals" will not use EVF?
Clearly they will, and are!!
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bfitzgerald
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I see very little demand from "top end Canikon" users for EVF's. I also don't see a strong demand from other users on this one.
As for Nikon I have only 2 quibbles with the company which I can avoid. One is their "crippled" entry level models which lack even the most basic functionality (ie HSS for one) the other is their mixed reputation for lens compatibility over the years with some bodies not supporting metering and AF on various lenses.

I can, avoid those issues by buying up a bit more body wise in the system. But I remain critical of Nikon in this regard as I feel it fragments the system to end users and can cause some confusion. Other than that there is little to not like about F mount overall.

If you're expecting Canon and Nikon to suddenly dump their entire OVF range of models I think you're in for a shock. They won't and even if they play around with EVF's at the lower end (and nobody would be shocked if they did) certainly at the enthusiast and up range it would be very unlikely that they would stop users having a choice of OVF models. In effect Sony have dumped their OVF users in one fowl swoop by stopping production of the FF DSLR bodies and A580 model. That I think is a mistake, to deny a customer a choice is clearly flawed. If you dig around on DPR there is a thread right now about "do you want an EVF" I see some well known former Sony users who are now Nikon customers because of this.
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by alphaomega »

If you're expecting Canon and Nikon to suddenly dump their entire OVF range of models I think you're in for a shock. They won't and even if they play around with EVF's at the lower end (and nobody would be shocked if they did) certainly at the enthusiast and up range it would be very unlikely that they would stop users having a choice of OVF models. In effect Sony have dumped their OVF users in one fowl swoop by stopping production of the FF DSLR bodies and A580 model. That I think is a mistake, to deny a customer a choice is clearly flawed. If you dig around on DPR there is a thread right now about "do you want an EVF" I see some well known former Sony users who are now Nikon customers because of this.
I think Barry may or may not be right in pointing out that Sony are either wrong or too quick in dropping OVF models in both APS-C and FF ranges.
Clearly Sony are determined to continue with FF cameras or they would not release the new 500mm F4 lens and possibly plan upgrades to their smaller SSM/G lenses as well as talking about FF camera releases.
Either Sony are confused or their technical people must think that within a short time they can release cameras with
Superior sensor - a reasonable assumption. Probably already a fact.
Superior EVF eliminating lag and the lack of highlight/shadow resolution.
Maybe they think that if their new EVF offering can match OVF under normal lighting conditions and be superior in darker shooting conditions they can "steal a match" on NIK/CAN. Such an EVF might also be cheaper to make and provide for faster shooting as a bonus.
Maybe they see themselves actually having a competitive advantage come 2013 and hence the reason they are also upgrading/extending their SSM/G lens portfolio and perhaps adding additional Zeiss glass. That belief could explain why they appear to be concentrating all their technical development on SLT and NEX products.
If they don't think along these lines I am at a loss to figure out what they are thinking. The idea that professionals are against EVF per se surely is wrong as many of them use video and EVF. If a Sony camera came on the market with a superior EVF and still/video capability to beat allcomers there would be room for Sony. Sony are betting on new technology as a way to get their desired market position and frankly I for one believe they are doing the right thing because I cannot see how they can capture a decent market share by continuing to invest in OVF DSLR cameras. Simple as that.
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edrice
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by edrice »

bfitzgerald wrote:If you dig around on DPR there is a thread right now about "do you want an EVF" I see some well known former Sony users who are now Nikon customers because of this.
I, in no way, ever confuse a few grumpy people on a forum as representative of the majority of users and anyone who does is probably easily swayed emotionally. I'd venture the vast majority of users go nowhere near forums and get their data from ads and reviews, which tend to be a bit more objective than grumps who hang out in forums belly-aching about how things used to be. Once you're freed of the emotional attachments, it's a whole new way of doing things.

I know this EVF discussion has gone on for more than a year, but perhaps you could please recap for me what the list of protests are? I'm so taken with the new way of doing things that I've completely forgotten what the negative issues are supposed to be. Just a short clause for each infraction will suffice, in list form, you know, like -

1) blah, blah, blah
2) yada, yada, yada,
3) etc, etc, etc

Thanks!
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bfitzgerald
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Well as for market share we'll see how many D800's and 5dMkIII's they sell and I expect quite a few Sony users to jump ship to those offerings (ie up to date bodies v Sony vapour-ware as per usual)

Yes many pros are deeply against EVF's that's because they don't want to see a slideshow for their photos, just the actual subject so they can capture it!
My views don't really matter much, but there's a mini riot going on DPR forums and it's not me with many user names mostly FF Sony customers who want to buy an OVF camera. Most stills shooters are not heavily into video either so they see that as a bonus. And very few would accept losing a third of the light that enters the camera to a fixed mirror.

Sony are just on a tech binge without actually sitting down and asking what their customers want.
You could dismiss my views, but then you'd have to question the validity of "Mike 2008" as well who seems to be on a marketing mission for Sony lately
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by twm47099 »

bfitzgerald wrote: The A350 started it..poor OVF for fast AF live view, since Sony brought these models out I felt they would eventually move away from OVF's (the OVF is terrible on these models any company prepared to compromise a VF that much would def abandon it)
The main thing the A350 and other entry level QLV cameras did was assure that the EVF would be enthusiastically accepted by their users.

tom
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by NevHi »

If Sony listened to Barry's problems with EVERY SONY camera since the 100 we would still be stuck doing manual focus from the Minolta MD era.

Barry, like Edrice I've forgotten exactly what your problem is with Sony? You didn't respond to "which system he will hop to when Nikon's TOP END also drops OVF in it's next generation (or so)"? Presumably not Canon.

Did you buy any of Sony's top end 'Pro gear' in any case?
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bfitzgerald
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Re: End of the road for the 580?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Why would I have bought top end Sony stuff when I had no confidence in them as a maker for years now? I cruised along with bar bones stuff in the hope they would start to see things in a Minolta ish way, that hope was ill founded. Thus I made a move when I felt the point of no return was (and that was the introduction of SLT models)
It's not my problem with Sony that's the issue I have no problem as I've handed over my money to a rival, don't sell it can't buy it ;-)

I do feel sorry for those who have invested in FF DSLR's (or even APS-C ones) from Sony and top end lenses as they've built up a system in the anticipation of a consistent clear continuation of these models. As expected Sony left A700 users high and dry for years..and they've done the same for FF DSLR users too.

BTW I'm now putting some fairly decent resources into F mount purely because I've a lot of confidence I'll be able to buy products that I want to. That is very important for users like myself. Sony are too unpredictable at the best of times.
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