When I was young my local supermarket manager used to say to me that the worst crime he could commit was to run out of stock.
I must admit that after 45 years in business I find Sony's product availability policies and practices rather baffling. There seems to be no overall plan to at the same time retain and create new customers to increase the demand base. There is no "stop go" free continuation of product availability. They produce a series of for example excellent NEX cameras, but few lenses. They have different features and accessories and a model costing £500 is soon superseeded by another product with a new accessory that cannot be used on the previous product etc. etc.
They do not keep the customer base advised of their camera and lens map so that current user can plan on the basis of retaining their product loyalty.
I must admit I am baffled at the same time as I am quite satisfied with the Sony cameras I actually use.

I think the problems (aside from the Thailand production disaster) are as I have said before "consistency" Canon and Nikon are very (in most ways) reliable dare I say predictable with product releases (bar the D400 again delays on that)

They have release cycles and even maintain models in production when new ones come out. Sony seem to be rather hit and miss in this regard. A700 big delay until the A77, FF DSLR bodies ended production no new ones until 2013 (so they say) and now we have chatter about a new A580 update or something along those lines. To me it's quite simple customers don't like this random shotgun approach to models and updates. They want to see a clear and obvious update pattern across a variety of price points. To me this is the biggest problem with Sony and it makes users very nervous. I know a few folks who wanted to get an A580, but now wandered off to other makers as they are not sure if this range will carry on.

I find it quite staggering that a company as big as Sony cannot see the problems they are causing and this nervousness does nothing to inspire confidence from users. And likely it does cost them customers as well. I wonder how many A900/A850 users will be twitching wondering what's going on. And with D800's arriving soon, you really cannot afford to do that. Onto grips and stuff no I didn't buy a grip for the A200 because I knew very well it was a: overpriced, b: would be for one model series alone and nothing more! I know makers do change batteries and grips and accessories from time to time, but they do at least try to keep that running for a while.

Barry, you've hit the nail on the head - Sony have got to realise that you don't cease production of your top end product(s) without new products to replace them, ready to go and on the shelf . It's this hit and miss approach that has made me sell my A900 and my lenses. I miss the in body SSS (in lens VR doesn't do it for me) and it cost me a lot to swop, but at least I know where I am with Nikon. I've still got my old Minolta MD gear, but that hardly sees film from one year to the next...... A real shame

Philip

alternatively "conservative", "stick in the mud" etc..
I think that part way along the DSLR trail Sony realised that whilst eventually they might be able to draw level with CaNikon by offering "me too" products that there was also a good chance by the time that they got there the market would have changed substantially (e.g. EVFs will replace OVFs for at least the mass market), be unprofitable or potentially even gone. They opted to try to be amongst the leaders into that emerging market especially as they could leverage their strength in electronics.
Sometimes willingness to forge your own path is a strength - I believe that Henry Ford said that if he had asked what people wanted they would have said "an improved horse" rather than a car & of course Apple is another example.

I also think that we are going to have to discount a full year from any trends due to the Thailand situation - it's caused such an interruption when so many product cycles are on an annual update that I can see a few manufacturers opting to skip a planned product & move onto the next one (I suspect that this is why the A35 appears to have been so short-lived)


I actually see it that Sony have their production/stock processes more under control. Plus I'm also fairly certain that Sony have a capacity constraint somewhere as they grow the Alpha business so why produce old models that sell at a kn ockdown price & compete with new, higher priced ones?
Both Canon & Nikon historically overproduce bodies which does mean that if you can wait a year or 2 you can pick up a bargain. Thom Hogan (whom I find to generally have a good handle on things) reckons that Nikon are only continuing to produce D700s now that the D800 is here is because they had substantially over ordered parts ...


We know that they had an A700 replacement ready to roll but they opted to cancel it when their long term plans changed.
& the rumour mill says that there will be a new Sony FF this year (& remember that if it hadn't been for Thailand it may well have been here now or imminent)


tbh I would say that Sony have been better in this regard than most of it's competitors. The A200 & A500 grips work for multiple models as does the A850/A900s & I find it interesting that at least Canon have now followed Minolta/Sony by duplicating more controls at least on their high end grips.
Battery wise Sony have only had 2 (1 for mainstream & 1 for physically smaller bodies) - compare that with Canon & Nikon.

I'm certainly not saying that Sony are perfect but I can understand some of where they are/what they are doing from a global business pov (otoh the logic behind what some of the regional/national Sony subsidiaries do does escape me)
Whilst I don't see any current Alpha that I feel a desperate need to upgrade to I also realise that my specific needs/wants are not mass market (& I don't think that yours are either, Barry) & I don't see what I want in any other manufacturers range either.

Point about grips is per generation the A200-350 grips just those no subsequent ones I would expect at least the "next models" to have supported it. Also price way overpriced for lower end bodies you might swing a high price for a mag alloy grip ala semi pro bodies and up..not entry ones though, and not plastic! Another quibble no AA option huge turn off this is something never addressed by Sony and probably the main reason I would get a grip (I'm not a huge grip fan but it's useful to have a back up power supply)

You could call Canon and Nikon conservative, but I have to ask the question just how exciting is it having a company that you're never really sure what might happen next?
As for the D700 being produced still maybe it's over supply of parts, or under supply of other models as Nikon have a lot of inventory problems and stock shortages. They've carried on a few models and I'm happy for that as I got a good deal on the D90, I expect the same to happen with the D7000 too. Canon do the same they carried on with the 550d even after the 600d was out. I prefer overlap to no actual product I have to say

the next models went small & having a grip for those would have gone against the direction of the design (also why no grip for A33/A55 etc. which are physically small bodies).
The A500/550 grip also fits the later generation A580.


Sony grips have tended to be better featured than e.g. Canon's whose lower end grips were really only battery grips & if you keep your eyes open you can buy them at decent prices (I've never paid over £100 for a grip for my A200, A700 or A580).
Tbh an AA option is nothing that has ever concerned me (quite the reverse in fact - I would like to be able to use my body batteries in flash as well) & I suspect that those who are are a very small minority (as is my wish).


apart from the D700 in this case they don't usually carry on production, they have overstock ....
So do Sony but just nothing like as much.

They kept the D90 going though for far longer than you would expect. I think the reason is the gap between the D5100 and D7000 is too big and it is being honest. How they plug that gap (if they plug it) will be interesting they might keep the D7k in production for a good while letting it drop down to a mid point between it and a new model
There is no disadvantage to having AA for these grips because it's a cartridge you can load it up and keep it spare AND use 2 lithium's in the grip too.

AA is universal I think many would not be overly impressed with a proprietary lithium battery for flashes. If you need more juice or faster cycles you can get a battery pack.
But the point remains the same on models and that is Sony have frequently left many lines "end of production" with no replacement. I suspect that cost them quite a few A700 users, and it might have a negative effect on A850/A900 users. Until they grasp that it's going to be a bit rocky for A mount users. A modest penta mirror A580 update is not likely to pull back departed users either.

The plot thickens!

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-ther ... a-anymore/

Seems to me that Sony are in a quandary about what to do next. This is good if you want to keep your enemy guessing about your intentions, but rather off-putting for your current and future customer base.
Anyway it does not affect me as I am set on acquiring the NEX-7 as my final camera purchase for a very long time. I shall take care of my A550 and A580 as well as they may become rarities.

What's next, abandoning A-mount in favor of E-mount?

Better get my a580 serviced soon. Hope it'll last me a few more years.

Mark

Yes, time to source a 580 from left over stock, and start saving my money for the transition to Nikon.

I will miss the IBIS.

Dusty

The thing I remember mainly about trying to get a sense of Sony’s market direction was the period well before the Thailand flood where Sony discontinued the A700 and left the shelf bare of any such model while pointlessly churning out many lesser featured intro type models without bothering to address glaring deficiencies in the rest of the ‘Sony version’ of the A-mount system (such as lenses & accessories, and in particular fix the Minolta macro flash system they screwed up). With that strategy in mind is it any wonder that Sony failed to make any great impression on the major players for the duration of that experiment. That and their inept almost non existent marketing/distribution combined with being disconnected from their user base. (Self inflicted)
The eventual direction for the A-mount after all the foot-dragging resulted in no replacement for the A700 and the gradual discontinuation of DSLR’s (the latest being the A900), at the same time going solo with the hybrid video centric SLT’s, (the SLT is not a DSLR, it has no reflex mirror) all of which are aimed at possible Bridge-cam and P&S up-graders (as well as adventurous DSLR users who think they would like to dabble with video in a klutzy basic fashion).
The A-mount division is under the control of the cybershot division now mostly due to the NEX and SLT I think, neither of those are DSLR’s even though Sony plonked an alpha logo on them. The NEX especially is an alpha mind warp because it’s not even an A-mount camera.
I think their aim is/was to eventually morph the A-mount into some kind of upmarket interchangeable lens cybershot, the NEX got in the way briefly because it did the job much better due largely to its most likely unforseen attributes with adaptors and resulting popularity, but Sony got back on track with the electronic A-mount ‘point and shoot’ by inventing the SLT (and didn’t get too carried away with retrospective compatibility whilst designing it).
Now I’m not sure what’s in store for the A-mount, Sony will probably poke at it with a stick a bit more (i.e. more of the same), maybe fiddle around with a FF SLT to see if they can accidentally get one happening in the market place, could be good actually, the ultimate cybershot, I hope they make a silver one, I get goose bumps just thinking about it.
The key point to remember IMO is, the decline of the A-mount DSLR under Sony is all because of self inflicted ineptitude (and increasing distrust in some of their user base).
They got off to a good start with the well featured and accepted A100 but of course it was just a re-vamped KM5D and they didn’t mess that up apart from it being a bit noisy, but they managed to mess up the A700 intro at the time with problems it should never have been released with and this limited it’s desirability (for me, but I eventually bought one), it would have put the Alpha-mount on the map and established Sony as a force in serious cameras had it been managed better, amazingly they still did a similar thing with the A77 years later, the mind boggles.
Greg

Hard to disagree Greg but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I felt for some time that too many mistakes were made, as well as some fairly obvious model strategy errors. I do still think Sony are chasing a certain type of customer, and don't feel very obliged to cater for some of the KM users or OVF fans in a way they should do. It's their loss though as the other makers will mop up these folks. We can sit here and say the A100 was a good start and could have been updated through the years as a solid upper entry model, or that the 5 series could and should have been stronger as a genuine mid level model. Or that the A700 could have easily had an update and have been a knock-out hit with users. I had an interesting debate with a DPR reviewer who tried to palm me off with the "Sony have to be different/take a different direction" and I've heard it from Pentax as well. Truth is that if you make a good product it will sell. I never bought into that argument myself. Different is one thing but SLT is too controversial in the business right now, it could swing if they committed to looking after their OVF customers too (ie a choice). With Pentax it's a case of being dragged kicking and screaming to make some fairly "normal" lenses rather than some of the overpriced obscure limited ones or strange offerings like a £600 55mm f1.4 such offerings do nothing to pull new users into that mount either. If being difference is selling less, it's a clear mistake.

One poster on DPR put it nicely for me. Sony "Tell you what you are going to have" (take it or leave it) other makers listen and then give you that product. This is why more than a few people have accused Sony of being arrogant and out of touch. I don't really think it's carried on the spirit of Minolta certainly with recent products it has not.

Dusty IBIS is good and I still feel that way. But some of these models are so good now at high ISO it at least partly offsets this. I miss it a bit, but I don't miss having a wide choice of lenses, flashes, accessories, bodies and a lot of s/h stuff available too. If you can't get it on Canikon..you can't get it full stop. I wanted to try the "smaller player" route and did for a while, but it's now very obvious to me why many people gravitate to the top 2 makers.

That may be true in Australasia & N. America but it isn't in Europe (effects of Thailand floods excepting).


well, at the time I did suggest that of the A230 etc. as being a bridge with an interchangeable mount.


& yet they are selling more A-mount than KM did ...

We can all point at things that as older/further up the chain A-mount users we either don't like or want but the fact is that the A700 up type segment is a small part of the market & Sony are trying to get volume sales where they exist - the bottom-to-mid.
If they don't get the volume there then they won't continue to produce mid up - they aren't Leica.
& 30% & growing of sales of interchangeable lens bodies no longer have an OVF.

Well yes, the entry model area is potentially high volume but that area looks like a minefield for manufacturers too me, it’s heavily contested and congested with frequent model releases from all and sundry with a few successes and some failures (and extra new potential failures lately) and one would think that the prices would be cut to the bone anyway, it’s difficult to see exactly what is so attractive in that area, I suppose it does help keep the assembly lines ticking over, the doors open and people in a job. And I suppose that area could be seen as the battleground for the hearts and minds of future long term users/buyers. Too my thinking, (if I was in the habit of thinking) the entry area is where you make cameras with gimmicks and video flim flam that might work in some fashion (better or worse according to price) because that’s what one would expect to find there.
The area I would have thought would be worth more attention for half a job Sony is the middle ground, and there I would start too think about offering dual camera lines, a more upmarket and expensive model (SLT) than the entry area that has inbuilt video along with still capability that (doesn’t do either job as well as a dedicated video cam or a dedicated still camera separately) and Sony already have that with the various SLT offerings. But they have neglected the dedicated still camera area now by not offering the still shooters a camera designed just for stills without any video compromises and light absorbing/reflecting sloped mirror thingy in the way (LV mirror up yes, but with no actual video you don’t need fast AF in LV, manual exposure control, silent lenses, extra power, sound balancing/sync or an onboard mike or worry about EVF smearing/lag time etc.).
The NEX is worth considering for sure, it has the advantage of regular DSLR’s, no light absorbing/reflecting obstruction between the lens and sensor, but it’s a camera that can’t use A-mount lenses directly. The only way one can use A-mount glass effectively is too buy an expensive adaptor which converts the camera into a klutzy SLT with a short battery life and a not so wonderful interface so no real advantage is realized over a regular DSLR there IMO except it has the ability to use a vast array of non OEM glassware via non obstructing adaptors using MF. The NEX will eventually become even more desirable as a complete camera I think when Sony finally gets around to making a more complete system of needed expensive high quality SILENT focussing/aperture control/zooming for video E-mount lenses for it…but don’t hold your breath because if Sony tries to do that their video cam division will probably kick up a big fuss.

The way I see it is
World 2012 DSLR sales (guesstimate)
Canon = 49%
Nikon = 41%
Pentax & others = 10%
Sony = 0% (Because SLT’s aren’t DSLR’s they should go into the figures for ‘other’ and ‘hybrid’ interchangeable lens cams)
http://www.dslrphoto.com/dslr/space.php ... igital_slr
I couldn’t find a single SLT in the top ranked 'DSLR' sales in the US, I don't know if they actually class DSLT's as DSLR's, they used too at one time.
Greg