A77 versus Full frame

[Rodney Brown]

After reading an earlier post about which full-frame was best (A850 or A900) I thought it right to add a related question that is troubling me.

If the A77 has pulled off the amazing trick of providing 24 megapixels on a APSC sensor and actually improving on the low light performance of the A850 and A900 - then why spend the extra money on full-frame? We seem to be able to get the performance of full frame on an APSC equipped camera in the A77. Or am I missing the point?

From the reviews I've read, the A77 has the robust magnesium alloy body of the other cameras and a built in flash too.
I'd appreciate replies especially from anyone who's had the chance to use both the A77 and the full frame models.

[bfitzgerald]

To my eyes the A77 looks worse at high ISO v the FF Sony's
I believe Dyxum also did a shoot out with the A700 and that the A77 also lost that

I don't really see it as a viable option for high ISO shooters, maybe ok up to a point but clearly outclassed by not only rivals but by even their own models (ie 16mp CMOS bests it easily too)

[Rodney Brown]

Low light performance may be the weak point of Sony Alphas in general, but it isn't the be-and-end-all. I don't normally shoot above ISO 400, even for sunsets and dusk shots. I've got the fast 2.8 Zeiss 24-70mm and with "steady shot" I only rarely use anything other than ISO 100. In that range of settings I shouldn't run into problems with the A77, should I?

[Dr. Harout]

Low light performance may be the weak point of Sony Alphas in general, but it isn't the be-and-end-all. I don't normally shoot above ISO 400, even for sunsets and dusk shots. I've got the fast 2.8 Zeiss 24-70mm and with "steady shot" I only rarely use anything other than ISO 100. In that range of settings I shouldn't run into problems with the A77, should I?

I'm enjoying the 50 and 100 ISOs of the a77, seldom 200 and above.

[cosmonaut1959]

Well now that I have had seat time with both I think that both are the same in noise areas, a77 maybe a little better, but with that I think the a850 has a touch more color depth and seems less prone to flares. Yes Doc the iso 50 is sweet when I want to do long exposures with car trails ect.
I enjoy shooting late. I like the simple lay out of the buttons on the a850. One day I hope cameras buttons glow in the dark a little. I can't imgaine it interfering with the IQ.

[Magnar Fjortoft]

When talking about noise I found the difference between these cameras neglible, with just a bit more visible noise from the A77 at ISO 3200 and 6400 (I don't shoot at higher ISO settings). For my real world work the difference doesn't matter sincethe visual impression of my photographs are not affected (reaading the content). But then the A77 has some neat tricks like no mirror vibration and the electronic first curtain that eliminates shutter vibration, resulting in sharper and more detailled raw files under a wide raneg of sutiations compared with the A900. Also autofocus is better and continious focus is much more reliable, so for me the A77 is the clear winner.

When new FF SLT cameras hit the marked I will for sure take a closer look, no matter 24 or 36 Mp, since noise is more related to the total area of the sensor than to pixel size.

[JohnDuder]

I don't see the A77 as an alternative: I have enjoyed my widenagles being wide again since getting a 900, and don't plan to go backwards.
I will eventually get a 99 (or whatever) if I can afford it at the time: but I now have a backup 850, jsut in case they don't bring forth soemthing that is actually better...
My dream woudl be what one might, for the sake of argument, call an Alpha 9000 - full frame, 36mp, and a real viewfinder. But I know Sony have said they are heading EVF-wards.

[maxxuus]

When talking about noise I found the difference between these cameras neglible, with just a bit more visible noise from the A77 at ISO 3200 and 6400 (I don't shoot at higher ISO settings). For my real world work the difference doesn't matter sincethe visual impression of my photographs are not affected (reaading the content). But then the A77 has some neat tricks like no mirror vibration and the electronic first curtain that eliminates shutter vibration, resulting in sharper and more detailled raw files under a wide raneg of sutiations compared with the A900. Also autofocus is better and continious focus is much more reliable, so for me the A77 is the clear winner.

When new FF SLT cameras hit the marked I will for sure take a closer look, no matter 24 or 36 Mp, since noise is more related to the total area of the sensor than to pixel size.

After reading an article on mirror vibration and such, I did my own tests with a tripod and laser pointer. Actually I would be embarrassed to take the tripod out in public. It was the shakiest, wobbliest tripod I've ever owned. It is light and easy to handle though. I fastened the laser to a to my A700/16-80 set to 80mm and used the Sony wireless remote.
If I moved around the tripod the laser would wiggle. That's how springy the floor was.
With this setup I thought I was guaranteed to see mirror vibration. NOT SO!!! I went to where the laser was shining and fired the remote. I could see no movement of the laser beam. I used 1/4 second to 1 minute shutter speeds. The speeds where vibration is likely to occur.
If I used the camera shutter release the pointer would move and you could see the movement in pictures. The 2 sec timer worked well. All vibration was gone when the shutter fired.
My conclusion was that the A700 does not have any mirror slap to cause vibration and that these articles were written persons who don't use Sony.

Cam

[Greg Beetham]

After reading an article on mirror vibration and such, I did my own tests with a tripod and laser pointer. Actually I would be embarrassed to take the tripod out in public. It was the shakiest, wobbliest tripod I've ever owned. It is light and easy to handle though. I fastened the laser to a to my A700/16-80 set to 80mm and used the Sony wireless remote.
If I moved around the tripod the laser would wiggle. That's how springy the floor was.
With this setup I thought I was guaranteed to see mirror vibration. NOT SO!!! I went to where the laser was shining and fired the remote. I could see no movement of the laser beam. I used 1/4 second to 1 minute shutter speeds. The speeds where vibration is likely to occur.
If I used the camera shutter release the pointer would move and you could see the movement in pictures. The 2 sec timer worked well. All vibration was gone when the shutter fired.
My conclusion was that the A700 does not have any mirror slap to cause vibration and that these articles were written persons who don't use Sony.

Cam

Now look what you’ve gone and done….spoiled a good yarn with the facts, obviously the A700 mirror is counterbalanced so there is no vibration no matter what shutter speed is used, that should end one of the main anti DSLR arguments or put it on very shaky ground, so to speak.
At least Sony would have got the flash gremlins under control with the SLT’s one would think….but nope, by all accounts they are pretty bad actually going by the number of complaints I have seen lately, unpredictable over exposures and flash delays, it’s beginning to look like a case of foot-shoot-ow….again. Lets hope Sony can get things under control with the FF SLT, when it finally emerges…one day.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Well MLU is useful in a specific range and mostly at longer focal lengths or close up/macro shots. But..and here's the rub when the A550 came out and didn't have it, amazingly some campaigned against the MLU folks, saying it wasn't needed.
Now astonishingly every shot from a reflex camera has mirror slap that can ruin your shots even wide angle.

You can't have it both ways on this one. MLU remains useful and good technique to employ in situations as and when required. But it was not..nor ever a shot ruining experience esp not for wide angle work or within safe shutter speed limits. But there is a variation between cameras the A200 def did need it quieter shutter or not, but it didn't have it so I ejected that (and for a few other reasons) and replaced it with another Km5d

But you won't hear me say it ruined all my shots with mirror slap, because it didn't. It was just something that should have been there, that is useful (at times) that wasn't. It's great SLT solves that problem, but it's a little ridiculous for SLT fans to suggest mirror slap is a huge issue all around. It's not.

[agorabasta]

When I first got my Nex5N, I immediately noticed how much steadier my shots were with that electronic first curtain thingie enabled with that cam. I mean the mechanical first curtain clearly introduced considerable motion blur at certain shutter speeds.

Then I compared my results with the older Nex5 that didn't have that fancy thingie electronic.
And, guess what, it was as good without that as the 5N was with it.

Surely not a direct analogy, but something to consider while trying to compare features' usefulness across different particular design implementations...

[Magnar Fjortoft]

When talking about noise I found the difference between these cameras neglible, with just a bit more visible noise from the A77 at ISO 3200 and 6400 (I don't shoot at higher ISO settings). For my real world work the difference doesn't matter sincethe visual impression of my photographs are not affected (reaading the content). But then the A77 has some neat tricks like no mirror vibration and the electronic first curtain that eliminates shutter vibration, resulting in sharper and more detailled raw files under a wide raneg of sutiations compared with the A900. Also autofocus is better and continious focus is much more reliable, so for me the A77 is the clear winner.

When new FF SLT cameras hit the marked I will for sure take a closer look, no matter 24 or 36 Mp, since noise is more related to the total area of the sensor than to pixel size.

After reading an article on mirror vibration and such, I did my own tests with a tripod and laser pointer. Actually I would be embarrassed to take the tripod out in public. It was the shakiest, wobbliest tripod I've ever owned. It is light and easy to handle though. I fastened the laser to a to my A700/16-80 set to 80mm and used the Sony wireless remote.
If I moved around the tripod the laser would wiggle. That's how springy the floor was.
With this setup I thought I was guaranteed to see mirror vibration. NOT SO!!! I went to where the laser was shining and fired the remote. I could see no movement of the laser beam. I used 1/4 second to 1 minute shutter speeds. The speeds where vibration is likely to occur.
If I used the camera shutter release the pointer would move and you could see the movement in pictures. The 2 sec timer worked well. All vibration was gone when the shutter fired.
My conclusion was that the A700 does not have any mirror slap to cause vibration and that these articles were written persons who don't use Sony.

Cam

Here is a quite different story after making some tests with two Sony cameras:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=40213737

Mirror vibration is for sure an issue for some of my work.

[edrice]

Here is a quite different story after making some tests with two Sony cameras:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=40213737

Mirror vibration is for sure an issue for some of my work.

That's a very telling demonstration, Magnar. Well done!

Ed

[Greg Beetham]

Here is a quite different story after making some tests with two Sony cameras:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=40213737

Mirror vibration is for sure an issue for some of my work.

Well that’s pretty convincing, no matter how well damped the A700 might be it can’t match the A77 with no mirror slap at 24X, MLU does improve things for sure but still can’t match the electronic first curtain of the A77. Good test Magnar.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

I've never seen anything like it being honest. Unless he was shaking the tripod I can get 1:1 macros on a tatty tripod and MLU tack sharp.
BTW I have to point out our friend was the one who said the A550 didn't need MLU

I'm not buying this one sorry folks..