after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Specifically for the discussion of the A-mount DSLR range
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classiccameras
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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby classiccameras » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:22 am

I strongly suspect that the camera industry is driving and promoting the M4Thirds format rather the photo Media or photographers.
Panasonic started it along with Olympus. Sales wise Panasonic are the top seller in this format. If Sony wanted to be serious about a CSC, they should have used a different sensor which would have given them a much better platform to build high performance but small lenses. There is no doubt that Sony has struggled to get their E-Mount lenses to perform at least as well as its rival CSC. Having said that, Sony E mount CSC's are now finally the top performers in that group of cameras.
Only Samsung according to the reviews have mastered a CSC with an APS-C size sensor along with a body thats much better to hold than a Sony E.
Ironically, Panny lenses are generally performing better than Oly Micro 4 thirds lenses.

Olympus in a statement a few Months ago said they would honour and support all the 4thirds lens owners with an up to date body that will work with the top Oly pro lenses as well as the entry level lenses. They did not reveal the type of body but its suspected it will have the full OM-D spec. Olympus also said that the OM-D EM-5 is the first in a new line of bodies they are going to produce and for different markets, so we might see a budget version of the OM-D.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:45 pm

I see a few micro 4/3 cameras around, but whilst the odd Canikon users dumps their stuff for micro 4/3 I'm not seeing it have any significant impact on DSLR's.
I also consider the OM-D quite overpriced for what it is, and the retro charm is not something that adds to the camera bar making the handling questionable.

It's probably selling ok, but not blowing any doors off. The real battle is full frame, and that is a fight micro 4/3 cannot compete in. This is where Sony need to put more effort in, and not with a NEX type body. Full frame will hit £1000 for a DSLR body eventually maybe even next year. If Sony are expecting to sell an overpriced NEX which isn't even going to appeal to DSLR users, they're missing the boat in a spectacular fashion.

The good news is that this should push the price of APS-C models down even further, even higher end APS-C. This is where micro 4/3 will struggle with the GH3 and OM-D type bodies.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby classiccameras » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:44 pm

Its questionable just why Olympus launched the OM-D as semi pro body at around £1,000. It was a small sector of the market to start with and sales were and are pretty small. They should have brought out an affordable entry to mid range body with better ergonomics than the OM-D. Its not as good to hold and use as the current bunch of DSLR's and its retro styling is lost on any one who was not around in the 35-mm days. I used an OM-D for a day and it was not as nice to use or hold as my other DSLR's.
I still use by E-510 and E-450 because I still get a kick out of using them and the results still please me, faults and limitations included.
I say to any one if you continually trash and complain about the cameras you use then move to another brand.

Barry, I'm not sure which market area you live in.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:55 pm

Europe.
I said the same move on but sadly the grass is not always greener either.
As for Sony I think they need a firm kick at times to get the message through, it just takes a lot longer for them to respond. I can see why folks are in a continued state of worry about Sony. They need to bring consistency and a long term thinking to their products.

The more you wander off in side line projects such as a NEX FF, the more people will think they've lost the plot.
Some folks hold on because "you have a bunch of A mount stuff" or a bag of s/h nice Minolta lenses. I'm prepared to take some compromises..but if they dump A mount for E mount and try to pass off an adaptor as a way forward it will not go down very well not just for me but many users.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby alphaomega » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:40 pm

Have not read the comments on the SAR site to his 2013 predictions quoted above by me, but things must have reached boiling point over the assumed prospect of the disappearance of A-mount cameras. So the chap has hastily tried to clarify the situation
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-a-an ... nt-future/
Yesterdays rumor about the Full Frame NEX created some buzz about the A-mount future. Some do believe that this may be the end of the A-mount. So let’s get through that:

1) First, this is a rumor site, so never I repeat NEVER(!) accept my info as 100% sure facts.
2) I never wrote A-mount is dead. The only thing I wrote is that Sony is speeding up the NEX FF project and that there will be no SLT FF in 2013. Again, this is a rumor. It may be that Sony will release an SLT FF in 2014. But I have no info about the 2014 strategy.
3) Focus on my A-mount rumors: As I told you there will be at least four new A-mount lenses within the next 6 months, there will be 2 or even three new A-mount ASP-C SLT cameras. That sounds damn good to me!
4) The NEX FF I heard about has 100% support for all A-mount lenses. Which means that AF speed will be as fast as it gets, like on current A-mount cameras. I would have no doubt buying A-mount lenses. Especially an upcoming lens like the superb 50mm f/1.4 Zeiss!
So perhaps Barry and like-minded persons can breathe a sight of relief just at the moment. You never know with Sony though. Somebody suggested that the APS-C SLT replacements will be driven by getting the new flash mount on all current Alpha cameras and probably also access to apps. Funny he should emphasize just a RUMOUR when he made it SR5 and used to brag afterwards about the accuracy of his SR5 rumours.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby Atgets_Apprentice » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:43 pm

Please stop depressing me just before Christmas!
XG-1, XD-5, XD-7, X-500, XG1n, X300, 7000i, 700si, 800si, 500si Super, 600si, Dynax 5, KM 7D, a100, a200, a300, a580. And another 600si.....

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby classiccameras » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:43 pm

"They need to bring consistancy and long term thinking to their products"

What, like Canon and Nikon.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby bakubo » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:57 pm

classiccameras wrote:Its questionable just why Olympus launched the OM-D as semi pro body at around £1,000. It was a small sector of the market to start with and sales were and are pretty small. They should have brought out an affordable entry to mid range body with better ergonomics than the OM-D. Its not as good to hold and use as the current bunch of DSLR's and its retro styling is lost on any one who was not around in the 35-mm days.


I wrote extensively here about my complaints about the E-M5 ergonomics, but I don't recall which thread it is in. I also wrote about it here:

http://bakubo.blogspot.com/2012/06/olympus-om-d-e-m5-poor-ergonomics.html

Having said all that though, I have been surprised at how many young people who have never used film camera have been so impressed by the style of my E-M5 even though I am certainly not impressed by the style. :lol: I can't tell you how many times while in the elevator, walking around, etc. a young person has asked me about my camera and told me how cool they thought the style is. My impression is that although there are some older people who like the nostalgic styling it is mostly younger people who like it. Of course, that is what one would expect. It has always been common for later generations to look back through rose colored glasses at certain aspects of the past. I have also written here about how popular with young people old 35mm SLRs from the '60s and '70s are in Tokyo these days. Sometimes I think they are carried around more as a fashion accessory, but also lots of young people are using them. I also posted a photo of a Japanese magazine in Tokyo earlier this year that had an article with photos of young people using old film cameras in Tokyo.

For my travel uses the E-M5 has been quite good in most ways and in a couple not so good. That is pretty good though since with all my earlier Canon, Sony, and KM DSLRs the good/bad ratio was worse. I don't get attached to brands though and if m4/3 starts dying then I won't care. I'll just sell off what I have before the end and move onto something else. No gnashing of teeth, wringing of hands, trying to read the tea leaves, etc. like I see from Barry and others on the internet. There is a pretty good chance that even if m4/3 thrives I will find something I like better later. No biggie. In fact I am looking forward to it! :lol: The NEX 6 ergonomics looks pretty good to me, but the range of lenses I would want are still bigger/heavier than I want, no IBIS, and CDAF is not as fast as the E-M5, but a later NEX might be enough to tempt me.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby bakubo » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:58 pm

A few minutes ago I saw this new post from today:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/12/merry-christmas.html

Second, I'm not entirely convinced that it's (Nikon D800) capable of better results for my uses than the OM-D. The D800 has good highlight rendition, but so does the OM-D; the D800 has better high-ISO flexibility, but the OM-D's stabilization offsets that; and I just find the OM-D's picture files to be exceedingly pretty—the D800's too. The one area in which the D800 clearly body-slams the OM-D is that it's so much more comfortable to use—viewfinding, handling, control knobs'n'buttons'n'menus are all so much clearer and easier to me. And yet the OM-D counters by one-two punching the D800 in terms of easy portability and greater stealth.

As always, there are trade-offs with everything so you just choose which things are more and which things are less important to you.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:21 am

The idea of a FF NEX doesn’t do much for me but it might others of course. The main redeeming feature of any NEX is the ability to use lenses that otherwise wouldn’t ever see the light of day, maybe a FF NEX will be slightly more useful for doing that than the APS-C ones they already have, one fine day when or if it emerges who knows.
My worry with Sony is are they maintaining system compatibility enough for those at the more serious end of photography or are they causing people to pause and wonder what Sony is going to do to them next, stability, continuity and compatibility are things a good camera system has to have so people have confidence in that system, the concept of having to sell or throw away previous items that are no longer fully compatible or don’t work properly with the latest cameras is something that Sony should avoid at any cost because their customers would then have to wonder and worry how long the replacements would stay current before they have to do it all over again, and so on.
Thinking about Pentax is something like thinking about NEX’s, I think honestly as much as I would like Pentax to stick around and succeed they are a little too far out in left field too often, (and maybe sneaking a puff on some good stuff) trying too hard to be noticed I guess.
As an example they re-invented an expensive MF camera that doesn’t have an interchangeable back (the film version didn’t either but the digital one should have) and now with sensor advances it’s become a questionable investment for a working photographer especially when you look at it compared to a D800E (performance-price & lens prices). The 645 is locked in place and time because one can’t buy it with the latest back or fit an updated back to the one you have.
It’s moves like that that has me slack jawed when one thinks of the amount of money they must have sunk into such a development and when one considers that Pentax has an array of 35mm lenses out there that the 645 can’t use but a FF digital could have, mostly legacy manual focus though I think, but at least they would have the f-stop ring on the lens where it should be, a FF digital makes more sense to have in the system than an MF one does or did.
Now they are stuck in highly competitive digital no-mans land with an APS-C only system and APS-C only lenses with no FF and an expensive pro MF digital that always potentially had a small market even while it was on the drawing board, even if it sold well to that market it wouldn’t be in large quantities, or quantities that might stand a chance of covering the development costs.
They do other weird stuff too like that yellow job you could see from space that might have had a chance had they made it with a short register so it could use every lens out there with adaptors like the NEX does, but no they didn’t and it can’t so it’s a dud design that will fade away into oblivion probably much like the toy Q will…amen.
Olympus and Panasonic seem to have a pretty good act marketing wise and performance wise too now (despite corporate skulduggery involving spending millions on fresh air that’s still as incomprehensible as the day is long) so maybe they will be around for some time yet.
Greg

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:55 am

Greg

I like and agree with most of what you say. Its market share that has them worried. FF is a tiny sector of the market mainly due to price and size and lack of desirability by the average camera buyer. APS-C is where the money is at least for that section of the DSLR market. As you say, Pentax are a bit out on a limb but we have to concede they do have some pretty good DSLR's, well at least according to the reviews. They seem to be the reviewers 'PET' DSLR.

The DSLR market is shrinking and infact the whole camera industry is getting smaller due to the mobile with camera. The gadget show on TV said that the mobile camera phone is the largest photographic sector in the world accounting for over 90% of photos taken. This is what worries the camera manufacturers.

Olympus have not been that good at advertising their products especially their Micro4thirds. Yes, the OM-D is a cracking camera with a high spec but they kept pretty quiet about it because of the price. Panasonic on the other hand promoted their G5 on TV with a very compelling ad. You can get a G5 [which I think is nicer to hold than an OM-D] for around £500, and lets be honest the performance is almost on a par with Olympus, the Panny kit lenses are certainly better according to Photozone and LensTip.
My only concern with M4T [Oly and Panny] is the out of camera pictures look [in my opinion] over processed in comparison to APS-C. Another point is, Pannasonic unlike Olympus have no legacy to fall back on so I think their designs are refreshingly new and ergonomic with no influence from past glories.

If Olympus bring out a body [not necessarily an OM-D] at a more sensible price where I can also use my 4thirds lenses on with no compromise to performance, then I will be in the cue.

You have to admire Olympus on one point, they set out originally to build a digital system from scratch rather than adapting 35-mm SLR bodies to digital as Canon, Nikon and Minolta did.

According to an article in the Times business section, one of the few electronic companies in the world that has growth is Samsung and their mobile, TV and camera products are some of the best at very competative prices.
If you read the press statements from Samsung, they have road mapped their photo strategy for the future, now that's not been very evident from the others has it.
All the manufacturers need to get their acts together to survive and give us the products we want, I think Samsung have already met that criterior.

Pete

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bfitzgerald
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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:18 am

Olympus has no real legacy AF mount to support, every other maker did that is why they did their "designed for digital marketing" and pushed 4/3
Part of that push was suggesting that the design of the lenses/sensor was superior by not having light hitting the sensor at stronger angels. Of course this went out the window with micro 4/3 which says to some that was nothing more than marketing at work.

4/3 failed in the DSLR arena partly because of the sensor size. It's better suited to micro 4/3 but if FF bodies come down in price as expected, they'll have a hard time overcharging for the OM-D.

Samsung have done well in computing and phones as well as other electronics such as TV's etc. They have not done well (despite some good ideas) in photography or cameras. NX sales are weedy and the only time you see them move is at blow out prices. Shame as they have some ok lenses, the brand is just not strong enough for cameras IMO and I might expect them to give up eventually in this market.

As for a FF NEX it will appeal to some, but a relatively small market and it seems like a questionable choice to make with the FF DSLR arena heating up strongly. If they're not planning another FF SLT body, they had better slash the A99 price and quite quickly..else their FF experiment will be little more than a showcase item.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:59 am

The Olympus legacy was the cameras, not lenses, perhaps I should have made that more clear.

It seems that you know everything avout every thing, so I bow down to your greater knowledge, it must be very gratifying for you. I worked in the trade, did you.
This thread is becoming a bit of a troll so I will back out before my mind is blown completely.

Happy Christmas

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bfitzgerald
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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:20 pm

There is no legacy on cameras it is the lenses that drive the systems which is very obvious to everyone.
The OM mount was bar one model entirely manual focus, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Minolta had all moved to AF

You really don't have to be an expert on cameras to work that one out.
I simply point out well known facts here. No idea why anyone would get all worked up about that.

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Re: after all these long years of buying cameras and as soon

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:02 pm

"No idea how people can get worked up about that"

Simple, its your smug and condiscending attitude towards a new comer to the forum, and you couldn't even wish me happy Christmas.

Have a Happy New Year


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