Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Well I have many A mount bodies including film ones from over a decade. Maybe I don't consider cameras as disposable items. I've 2 working Km5d's and they came out in 2005 and I've no intentions of dumping them they work (albeit a bit dated but still capable enough in many ways)

Had the A58 reached new record low prices (it might but I doubt it somehow) maybe it might swing it. I wondered if we'd get down to £199 odd or £250 for a DSLR and kit lens, the A37 is around £299 (and without a plastic front mount)

Sony are probably not losing sleep, but then they're not doing very well in the DSLR market anyway. Nor apparently are they that concerned about it (across the range) fine up to them but don't come running when A mount is gone, because I think that's the way Sony are heading. Not much effort here from Sony in this important segment (very little effort actually)

It would take me quite a while to hit 100k on the shutter even on a DSLR
mixxer
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

You may have two Km5d's but you'd much prefer to use your A57. That is why you bought it and are unhappy (and rightly so I might add) about the delay for it's repair.

As you probably guessed, I'm new to this forum and I certainly don't wish to offend anyone but I must say you seem to have a very negative attitude regarding Sony and their cameras. I understand you have dipped your toe in the Nikon water and also found issues. Surely that tells you that all companies are primarily concerned with profit and will pursue policies which they believe will most efficiently expidite those aims.

Sony have a problem regarding the DSLR (or SLT to be pedantic) market. They don't have the historical customer base of Nikon and Canon and hence the required 'photographic kudos'. They tried a 'head on' approach with the A700, A850 and A900. Everyone agrees these were/are excellent cameras yet sales were minimal compared to Nikon and Canon and therefore were probably a poor return on investment. They could have just pulled out of the market completely but it appears instead they have took on the challenge of offering something genuinely different (and IMHO better in most aspects). I believe the apparently illogical specification decisions being made recently are just a genuine attempt by Sony to find and establish a customer base from which to develop future (and probably groundbreaking) cameras.
For instance, I believe they were right to abandon the optical viewfinder. It's an anachronism and, contrary to the assumption of many, it does NOT give an accurate representation of an image either before and certainly not after capture.
mvanrheenen

Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mvanrheenen »

mixxer wrote:The question is, why be so concerned about longevity issues (real or imagined) for a camera which will be replaced almost certainly by choice rather than necessity within five years?
For most buyers of consumer dSLRs durability isn't an issue. I see heaps of consumers which buy a dSLR with kit lens(es) and buy a new version of the same model a few years later.

I myself want and need a more durable body and shutter because I mostly shoot at rather rough terrain, bump my lenses and camera in the proces and use my equipment in extreme weather conditions (freezing cold, blistering hot and everything in between). Furthermore because I shoot wildlife in less than optimum light in forrests high speed AF, good high ISO quality and a durable shutterlife are important too. I don't feel the need to have a premium 7 or 9-series body because of the cost of these bodies and the level of shooting I'm doing. It's just a way to relax for me. I shoot with an a580 which was best bang for the buck back when it was launched. My options have since been few, and by the looks of it, are getting smaller as the years develop. If my camera should be damaged beyond (sensible) repair, I'm left with 2 options in my view: buy a second hand a580 or a700 or jump ship.

My situation will not be an isolated case, I think a lot of hobbyists feel this way, but because the largest group of dSLR buyers for Sony are the people I described as the "consumers" above, they will keep producing lower priced, dumbed down bodies.

Mark
mixxer
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

Viceroy

It appears you want the durability of a high end camera but don't want to pay for it! I believe you'll find the ranges of Nikon and Canon will be as restrictive as Sony's in that regard.

You seem to be happy with your A580, I'd be very surprised if the A58 will not offer you similar levels of durability with superior image quality.
mvanrheenen

Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mvanrheenen »

Firstly, it's Mark :-) (Viceroy is a title of sorts :-))

Secondly, the a58 will not. Its fps is less than the a580, the 16 MP sensor in the older a5 models give better IQ at higher ISO than the >16 MP in other APS-C models both in Alpha as Nex serie. I won't be supprised if the same is true for the sensor in the a58. And we j ust have to see how the AF speed will compare.

With the a5xx models, Sony have shown they are very capable of producing great APS-C camera's for a decent price in my opinion.
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

mvanrheenen wrote:Firstly, it's Mark :-) (Viceroy is a title of sorts :-))

Secondly, the a58 will not. Its fps is less than the a580, the 16 MP sensor in the older a5 models give better IQ at higher ISO than the >16 MP in other APS-C models both in Alpha as Nex serie. I won't be supprised if the same is true for the sensor in the a58. And we j ust have to see how the AF speed will compare.

With the a5xx models, Sony have shown they are very capable of producing great APS-C camera's for a decent price in my opinion.
Hi Mark

Neither of us know for sure how the A58 will perform compared to the A580 but I'm confident it will be an improvement.

True, the A5xx series are very good cameras so why the lack of confidence in newer models? I personally believe the SLT EVF is a significant improvement over most APS-C OVF. You might disagree, and I respect your opinion but I've always found my A57's EVF to be an advantage rather than a limitation.

Mick
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mvanrheenen »

Mick,

I draw my opinion from testdriving the A77 a while back. I used it in the same conditions as I mentioned in the post above. I had the opportunity to use it for about 15 hours over 2 weeks. I took around 2000 images. What I noticed was that I seriously could not get used to looking at the TV being the EVF. It was so unnatural for my eyes. Even though the OVF of my a580 is small, dim and doesn't cover the whole frame, it's just a lot easier to look at. Furthermore, it was just too expensive at the time.

Build quality and speed are great. IQ too, but the noise at higher ISO is different. Can't explain why, but the a77 images looked to contain more color noise at high ISO than the a580. It was more difficult to handle for me, but that could be due to lack of skills on my end :-)

I don't doubt EVF will work for others, but not for me atm.

Mark
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by dynax800si »

Maybe the true reason for the plastic mount is that now the metal goes to the ugly METAL hot shoe ! :lol:
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

mixxer wrote:You may have two Km5d's but you'd much prefer to use your A57. That is why you bought it and are unhappy (and rightly so I might add) about the delay for it's repair.

As you probably guessed, I'm new to this forum and I certainly don't wish to offend anyone but I must say you seem to have a very negative attitude regarding Sony and their cameras. I understand you have dipped your toe in the Nikon water and also found issues. Surely that tells you that all companies are primarily concerned with profit and will pursue policies which they believe will most efficiently expidite those aims.

Sony have a problem regarding the DSLR (or SLT to be pedantic) market. They don't have the historical customer base of Nikon and Canon and hence the required 'photographic kudos'. They tried a 'head on' approach with the A700, A850 and A900. Everyone agrees these were/are excellent cameras yet sales were minimal compared to Nikon and Canon and therefore were probably a poor return on investment. They could have just pulled out of the market completely but it appears instead they have took on the challenge of offering something genuinely different (and IMHO better in most aspects). I believe the apparently illogical specification decisions being made recently are just a genuine attempt by Sony to find and establish a customer base from which to develop future (and probably groundbreaking) cameras.
For instance, I believe they were right to abandon the optical viewfinder. It's an anachronism and, contrary to the assumption of many, it does NOT give an accurate representation of an image either before and certainly not after capture.

The repair and other brand issues are not relevant to the discussion which is why I have a separate thread for that.
I won't deny I've been quite strongly critical of Sony for some time, nobody on this forum would argue that either. But I am not alone in that view.

The position of Sony is that they are fighting 2 well established makers (mostly) one of whom is the clear market leader (Canon)
Whilst I've been willing to give the SLT thing a bash, leaving aside the repair delays and problems associated with that it's a bit of a mixed bag (for me) on the performance. I'm ok with it indoor shooting, I like the focus peaking feature it's genuinely very useful. I'm not overly happy with it outside in higher contrast shooting situations, it's usable but clearly nowhere near as good as an optical finder. It has other side effects too such as higher power drain, in very low light there is significant lag. So mixed overall. I can use the A57 and will continue to do so, but I basically wanted a 16mp CMOS sensor and accepted the EVF as a compromise. I can't say I'd be that interested in spending the asking price for an A77 or higher models, one SLT is more than enough.

The strategy of only offering EVF models is IMO a flawed one as it denies users a choice and effectively leaves those who prefer OVF's out in the cold or buying s/h bodies to meet that need. It also likely puts off potential buyers (who are happily going out and buying OVF Models hand over fist from Canikon)
Which tells us mostly that the huge majority of DSLR buyers are not that interested in EVF's

IMO by Sony taking the path of SLT only they are probably doing worse than they were with OVF models, simply because most target buyers want optical finders. It's about making the product that the market demands.

I see a comment about wanting a metal mount and not being prepared to pay for it. Well sorry but some said that the SLT thing could work if it led to better cameras, at a cheaper price (and it might have) but then we look at models like the A77 (priced above rivals) and the A99 priced well above it's OVF competitors and it becomes clear to me that Sony think they can save money on production and not pass that onto the buyer. In the case of the A99 it sales are probably awful because it should be priced near or cheaper than a D600, yet it's s stonking £2100 body only well above even the D800

I don't mind SLT if it leads to cheaper cameras, but clearly this is not the case.
As for the plastic mount it's Sony cutting even more costs, and this time I think they've really gone too far. Worse the pre-order £499 price is no cheaper than the A57 sells for now (so much for lower prices) I very much doubt the A58 will hit record low prices maybe £350 odd not much less than that I would think

With a rather pathetic 6% of the market I can't help but think Sony have failed to carve out a market for themselves, and they are probably doing worse than they were a few years back. SLT has actually back fired and quite badly IMO. Changing flash hot shoes and cutting down the range or releasing an overprice 50mm f1.4 CZ prime for £1300, when they lack the most basic normal FF primes isn't going to change anything.

Bottom line is SLT has made no difference to Sony's outlook or market share, they're probably losing market share as they refuse to change direction and offer people what they want.
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by classiccameras »

Spare a thought for Pentax with less than 6% of the DSLR market. My personal view is they make excellent cameras, with superb OVF and have listened to photographers. Their cheapest KR and now K30 have metal mounts and the K30 has a pretty sturdy stainless steel sub chassis with water repellent seals, and the K30 uses a Sony sensor.
They also have a dedicated following and client base although very small in comparison to Canikon.

Pete
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by Winkler Prins »

mvanrheenen wrote:Firstly, it's Mark :-) (Viceroy is a title of sorts :-))

Secondly, the a58 will not. Its fps is less than the a580, the 16 MP sensor in the older a5 models give better IQ at higher ISO than the >16 MP in other APS-C models both in Alpha as Nex serie. I won't be supprised if the same is true for the sensor in the a58. And we j ust have to see how the AF speed will compare.

With the a5xx models, Sony have shown they are very capable of producing great APS-C camera's for a decent price in my opinion.
Hi,
A580 does 7 fps, A58 does 8 fps. So it is not less than the A580.
Image quality difference may be less because of the translucent mirror. However the sensor itself will be better. The same goes for all other high megapixel sensors, more pixels is better. The 24 mp sensor in A77 is better than the A580 sensor. The designs of the camera's differ too much to compare sensors directly.

It's a pity Sony does not offer any DSLR camera's anymore. However there are Nex camera's for those that dont like SLT design. A900 and A850 were cheap OVF camera's made to last forever, so everyone who wants one has had a chance to get one. :)

Pentax are excellent camera's but I don't think they are cheap either. No matter what brand you choose, you will have to bring more money to buy a better camera.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

No the A58 only does 5fps in full res mode. That's quite a downgrade v the A57 which could do 10fps at full resolution.
This gives buyers even less reason to look at the new A58 (so much for SLT super high frame rates)

About the only positive thing Sony did was address the lame bracketing (but at the same time ignore their current users on that)
Sensor looks similar to the 16mp CMOS low light performance, 4mp is so small it's not even worth talking about

I agree about Pentax the K5II is a great body (if they've sorted the AF problems out) it's also a good price. The problem is Ricoh has hugely increased lens prices in the USA (and they've gone up a lot in the UK too) and they only have 2 models. They just don't have the range overall or the distribution which is a real shame. I wish I could look at a K5II because it's got everything you might want at a good price (good build, good VF, sealed, nice body, decent controls/handling), I'm just unconvinced following my previous encounter with Pentax and their AF problems. They also have a very small s/h lens market compared to Minolta (AF lenses that is)

I'm not sure you'll get many supporting the 24mp A77 sensor being better than the 16mp CMOS, def not for low light shooting anyway (and def not in the A580 which has the best low light performance to date for Sony in a crop body) Sure 24mp is higher res, that's about it though. I think one of the reasons the A77 hasn't done that well is the sensor
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by Winkler Prins »

bfitzgerald wrote:No the A58 only does 5fps in full res mode.
I know, but it does 8 fps in crop mode. That's less than the full 20 mp but then again the A580 does not shoot 20 mp @ 8 fps either. Crop mode may not always be suitable, but if you really need 8 fps, it's there.
We all know it is about data through put and this will steadily increase over time (at the same cost). You can't expect big jump in data troughput for a new type of camera. You win some you loose some. This time it's more megapixels, next model will be the same amount of megapixels and higher fps.
This is about numbers in technical documentation. As far as usability is concerned, i expect no A58 user is affected by this. If you really can't afford to miss a shot at 10 fps, the A58 is not the camera for you. Save up and buy a pro camera.
bfitzgerald wrote: I'm not sure you'll get many supporting the 24mp A77 sensor being better than the 16mp CMOS, def not for low light shooting anyway (and def not in the A580 which has the best low light performance to date for Sony in a crop body) Sure 24mp is higher res, that's about it though.
No, look at the DxO data, compare camera's like A77, Nex 6, Nex 7, A580. The 24 mp sensor is better (equal as far as low light/high iso is concerned), except when it is in a SLT camera. Light loss from the translucent mirror is well known. Accept it as part of the deal or choose Nex.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Sorry but I think you're being a bit selective here. 8fps in crop mode..right but it's still a downgrade v the previous model

The reason people are kicking up on this new A58 is it's a downgrade in most areas let's thrash this list out to avoid any confusion here.

Better:
+ Longer battery life
+ Better bracketing range for auto bracketing (evidently)
+ Better EVF (OLED)

Worse:
- 5fps v 10fps on the A57 at full res (yes you can do 8fps in crop mode big swing you can do 12fps with fixed exposure on the A57)
- Plastic lens mount
- Smaller lower res 2.7" LCD which is not as articulated as the A57 (def downgrade no question and a substantial one)
- No standard remote socket as per A57
- Evidently the video mode drops the 50/60p options (so another downgrade)

Open to debate:
Hot shoe change we saw this coming probably a con if you are a current user probably not a factor for new buyers (we have no idea if Sony include an adaptor in the box as yes)
20mp CMOS sensor don't know enough about it v the A57's 16mp CMOS
Jpeg engine not seen much bar some comparison site didn't look like an improvement but we shall see
Smaller body (A57 was small enough IMO)
Buffer size not sure on this probably a bit smaller due to larger file sizes will have to wait on this.

So add that up and it's on balance a downgrade. I'm sure the response from many would have been fairly ho hum even if the A58 had a metal mount, same LCD, better EVF and the 20mp sensor it would not have been that interesting overall.

As they downgraded it in most ways the numbering scheme is odd to say the least should have been called an A40 SLT or something like that

On the 24mp sensor I don't need to look at DxO I can look at the many real world images and the A77's 24mp CMOS isn't as good as the 16mp CMOS be it SLT or normal camera not even close. You can't suddenly change your stance on buying pro cameras for high fps. Half the marketing from Sony has been being able to offer high fps with the SLT technology. Memory is cheap and going from 16-20mp isn't a big jump either so Sony could easily have improved the fps performance, but again decided to cut it down.
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Re: Sony A58 "plastic lens mount"

Unread post by mixxer »

bfitzgerald wrote:Sorry but I think you're being a bit selective here. 8fps in crop mode..right but it's still a downgrade v the previous model

The reason people are kicking up on this new A58 is it's a downgrade in most areas let's thrash this list out to avoid any confusion here.

Better:
+ Longer battery life
+ Better bracketing range for auto bracketing (evidently)
+ Better EVF (OLED)

Worse:
- 5fps v 10fps on the A57 at full res (yes you can do 8fps in crop mode big swing you can do 12fps with fixed exposure on the A57)
- Plastic lens mount
- Smaller lower res 2.7" LCD which is not as articulated as the A57 (def downgrade no question and a substantial one)
- No standard remote socket as per A57
- Evidently the video mode drops the 50/60p options (so another downgrade)

Open to debate:
Hot shoe change we saw this coming probably a con if you are a current user probably not a factor for new buyers (we have no idea if Sony include an adaptor in the box as yes)
20mp CMOS sensor don't know enough about it v the A57's 16mp CMOS
Jpeg engine not seen much bar some comparison site didn't look like an improvement but we shall see
Smaller body (A57 was small enough IMO)
Buffer size not sure on this probably a bit smaller due to larger file sizes will have to wait on this.

So add that up and it's on balance a downgrade. I'm sure the response from many would have been fairly ho hum even if the A58 had a metal mount, same LCD, better EVF and the 20mp sensor it would not have been that interesting overall.

As they downgraded it in most ways the numbering scheme is odd to say the least should have been called an A40 SLT or something like that

On the 24mp sensor I don't need to look at DxO I can look at the many real world images and the A77's 24mp CMOS isn't as good as the 16mp CMOS be it SLT or normal camera not even close. You can't suddenly change your stance on buying pro cameras for high fps. Half the marketing from Sony has been being able to offer high fps with the SLT technology. Memory is cheap and going from 16-20mp isn't a big jump either so Sony could easily have improved the fps performance, but again decided to cut it down.
Even if your subjective rather than objective take on what is a downgrade and what isn't is accepted (certainly not by me), you can't complain about a "downgrade" while ignoring the fact that the launch price of the A58 is significantly lower than that of the A57. Street price will also reduce over the course of time anyway and if, in the unlikely event of your pessimism being shared by the market, the model bombs it will leave a load of ultra cheap A58s for the rest of us to use to take photographs. 8)
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