The a mount is going mirrorless according to SAR

[Greg Beetham]

I think the main problem, one that doesn’t seem to be acknowledged by the various subsidiary western agencies for Pentax, Nikon and Sony is they are promotional based and do damage control as best they can while being cut off from direct contact with head office.
Thus they are slow to respond, even inept, when faced with technical problems on a scale that requires a response from higher up the chain, or systemic problems arise that have originated from an area outside their pay grade.

I had an experience with Canon that is completely different, a family member has an older model printer that was always just used as a stand-alone printer which was connected to the camera for printing. Recently it started to print wishy-washy colours and changing the ink cartridges didn’t fix it so I went to Canon Australia to see what I could find out, in the end I left a message on the ‘contact us’ and they responded with pages of the service manual and lots of instructions on how to fix it (clean the print head) which I found pleasantly surprising because I wasn’t an owner of a Canon anything and the printer wasn’t ever registered (not connected to a computer).

I had to ask myself if that had been any other brand what would have been the response. I doubt that any of the other brands even have a service department that knows how to fix things, they only employ salesmen who are focused on selling things, not fixing things, so with them I would have been given the address of their service agent I imagine and that would have been that.

But the experience does highlight the huge gulf between different approaches and what impresses people, and those memories stick around for when a need for a product comes up next time.
Greg

[bakubo]

I know that many people have lots of brand loyalty and identify with certain companies. I have never understood it, but recognize that it exists. I have never been that way myself. I have owned several brands and don't particularly care what company makes it as long as it works well with no defects.

Greg, so far, I have had experience owning several Canon products:

Canon 60D
Canon 30D
Canon 300D
Canon G15
Canon S95
Canon A590IS
Canon A540
Canon A70
Canon printer/scanner/copier (don't remember the model number)

All have been flawless (in the sense of no defects) and the whole time I owned them (only have the G15 and S95 now) I never had a single problem. My only experience dealing with Canon service was when I took my U.S. bought, out of warranty Canon 30D into the Canon service center in Shinjuku, Tokyo to get the sensor cleaned. I expected there would be a charge for this service. The people were so nice and friendly and they cleaned the sensor and had it ready less than 2 hours later. All for no charge. I don't know if Canon outside of Japan would have done the same, of course.

If I wanted a FF DSLR I would get the Canon 6D. I have looked at it and like it. Size/weight is not bad. Price is okay.

I realize that other people may have had different experiences with Canon, but I am just relating what mine have been.

[classiccameras]

I had a Canon 450D for a while and it consistently over exposed by about 2/3 stop. I had compensation dialed in permanently. Only living a 10 minute drive from Canon UK, I took it for checking, and they took a few pictures with it and pronounced it OK, they were basically not interested. Later I saw on the Canon forum that it was a fault on some copies. Needless to say, I sold it.

[classiccameras]

It looks like the A58 has already had a 'panning' from What Digital Camera.
Check it out.

[bakubo]

I had a Canon 450D for a while and it consistently over exposed by about 2/3 stop. I had compensation dialed in permanently. Only living a 10 minute drive from Canon UK, I took it for checking, and they took a few pictures with it and pronounced it OK, they were basically not interested. Later I saw on the Canon forum that it was a fault on some copies. Needless to say, I sold it.

I was not as lucky as you. Like you my KM 7D was defective and unfixable, but no one wanted to buy it like that. Fortunately, after 1.5 years and repeated trips in for repair Sony refunded my money. My A700 was also defective and unfixable and no one wanted to buy it like that either. I still have it.

[bfitzgerald]

Some folks just put up with problems I know a few D7000 users who feel the AF isn't reliable and use live view mostly, they just put up with the hit and miss AF because they like the camera. Same on the Pentax bodies K-r and K-5 have poor AF for some types of light and many users just work around the issue. I do have a habit of spotting issues simply because I'm picky and shoot in somewhat demanding lower light situations.

Mind you most friends I know with Canon have not had any problems across multiple bodies and over many years. Canon are not immune to issues but are probably better for QC than the others.
What's up with the A700 the control dial problem? I was thinking of adding one later one..but then 60d's are flying out at very good prices now too. I think some folks stick around as they have some classic glass that is good and just would be costly enough to replicate on other mounts. Prices are quite good on most of that vintage Minolta glass or non IS third party stuff, replacing a beercan on Canikon stabilised is going to cost you £900 odd, replacing my 90mm f2.8 macro with IS will double the cost of that lens for the new one, the list goes on and on.

Unless you can live with no IS on some of those lenses.
I've no problems being brand agnostic either, but bad experiences kill my interest. And running multiple systems can be costly.
Canon well the APS-C or FF thing is a factor I agree the 6d would be a good FF option for many, but then I'd have to start from scratch again. Funds allowing I think it would be a great low light camera and for portraits. It's a real shame Sony chose to ignore the newer wave of more affordable FF bodies. So I'm stuck with APS-C on A Mount for now..

[alphaomega]

It's a real shame Sony chose to ignore the newer wave of more affordable FF bodies. So I'm stuck with APS-C on A Mount for now..

Yes, Barry is right. No reason why they could not have done a A77/65 double act on FF with a cheaper companion to the A99.
I seem to remember a discussion way back around (or after) the A700 launch that the old Minolta hands were being squeezed out as they "could not think outside the box" and Sony needed people not "contaminated" with product specific experience. After all Minolta had to sell out. Need better proof of the need for new hands with "a clear vision"? Well we can all see where it has led Sony with A mount. Up a blind alleyway and back to the drawingboard. I thought that when they had the A580 type technology they could have released an update to the A700 and kept a simple line-up of a beginners camera, a camera for enthusiasts like the A580 and a successor to the venerable A700. I was just looking at some old A700 pictures taken in 2009 opened in LR new version and thinking just how stunning they still are from RAW. They could then have tested the market with new technology and NEX and still maintained at least a solid base of old Minolta users. That would have provided continuity and opportunity to test new technology without cutting off old customers. NEX & RX1/100 are where they seem to have achieved something so far. Not A mount I am afraid. Like Barry I am stuck with Sony due lens investment. I any event I have moved mostly to NEX and quite happy with results.

[bakubo]

Some folks just put up with problems I know a few D7000 users who feel the AF isn't reliable and use live view mostly, they just put up with the hit and miss AF because they like the camera. Same on the Pentax bodies K-r and K-5 have poor AF for some types of light and many users just work around the issue.

Those of us who get a defective camera are sometimes screwed. If you send it in to be fixed and they can't or won't fix it then what do you do? Ethically I can't sell it unless I disclose that it is defective and is unfixable. No one ever wanted to buy my KM 7D or A700 even for a good price since I was honest about the problems. Who would? So, my A700 sits in Austin unused. The last time I took it out of the bag a few months ago to play with the control wheels were not acting flaky, but I had it long enough to know that from time to time I would get fooled and think it had magically healed itself, but always the problem would return again.

Mind you most friends I know with Canon have not had any problems across multiple bodies and over many years. Canon are not immune to issues but are probably better for QC than the others.

All I know is my own good Canon experiences, but I can't speak for others.

What's up with the A700 the control dial problem?

Some people have no problems, but there are tons of reports of people with problems so you would be taking a chance.

I was thinking of adding one later one..but then 60d's are flying out at very good prices now too.

The Canon 60D was my favorite DSLR that I have owned. I really liked it, it was problem free, and as is so often the case with the Canon cameras I didn't discover any brain-dead, head-scratching, what-were-they-thinking?, stupid design choices as so often happens. Of course, I am not saying that others may not find things like that, just that in my use I didn't. The 60D and G15 have both been so well sorted out that I am a bit surprised, very pleasantly surprised.

It is unfortunate that Canon DSLRs, like NEX, don't have IBIS though.

[classiccameras]

I think Canon are one of the safer bets to move to if you feel the need to move.

I also think the latest Pentaxes are worth considering but although I have a Nikon D5100 and a Nikkor 16-85 which takes outstanding pictures, I wouln't go back to Nikon, not for the more obvious reasons, but I much prefer Sony colours and their SLT's are easier to use up at the eye, the Nikon colours are dodgy and greens are way off and it weighs a ton by comparison. I am also impressed with Pentax colours and metering and that would be my first choice mainly because of the built in sensor stabilizer and more compact lenses which don't have to be Pentax if you so wish. I think Fuji feature some where in my list as well.

Pete

[bfitzgerald]

Pete I tried Pentax mostly because of the IBIS side of things that's what pulled me to them. If you look around right now you can bag a new K-5 for £499 and you will be tempted. Very nice build, good viewfinder, handling is logical and easy to get used to very nice camera. Used one and liked it a lot but the AF will drive you up the walls in artificial light it's just all over the place (like the K-r)
Maybe the K-5II has sorted that problem out, that's not a bad price for the class of camera, if you do any kind of lower light shooting I would suggest avoiding the K-5 myself and look at the K-5 II

Lenses wise mixed bag with Pentax some nice glass there too, but some odd ones does anyone really want a 21mm f3.2 pancake lens? 40mm f2.8 is quite a nice pancake wish it were f2 though. S/h wise Pentax have a decent number of MF lenses around, but relatively few AF ones and what's there attracts fairly high prices. You probably could whip something together that meets your needs though if you mix some Sigma/Tamron glass into the mix.

Canon have a huge s/h market you could ebay right now a 20/30/40d for next to nothing, even a 50d is pretty cheap as is the original 5d. Even those older crop bodies are well build, solid performers in my use of some of them, granted not class leading for IQ, but you could pull a system together body wise for not that much. But I would miss IBIS.

A mount has a lot of nice glass mostly at good prices and I think that's what appeals to users, though A850 prices are coming down on ebay, A700's are also quite cheap. Moving mounts isn't cheap or easy, that is why I hesitate to do it again it's also time consuming listing and selling stuff off. The Fuji ILC's do look interesting but are lacking one important area for me, HSS. Without that I can't effectively use fill flash outside and that's pretty important for some types of shooting. I might be tempted with an X100s when the price drops to more sensible levels.

Sony could do a lot more for A mount with a better body range, I wish they'd at least address the quirks they currently have, those annoying nag screens and iffy jpegs. But there is almost no hope of that. Like I said in my service thread, this is just a place for me to put my mostly Minolta/Tamron lenses. The bodies are not bad but feel a bit unfinished in terms of design and someone sitting down and nailing down nagging points. And the EVF always feels one step behind the cameras which are quite fast overall.

[classiccameras]

Barry
Thanks for those thoughts and suggestions, I will bare them in mind.
I haved been a tad greedy over recent years with camera purchases.
But no huge investment in any of them

Currently I have a Nikon D5100 + DX 16-85, DX 18-105

Sony A37 with standard 18-55 kit lens [which I don't use] KM 17-35 F/2.8 D and a Minolta 24-85 F/3.5. neither of these lenses cost very much. I will keep this little system in case things get better next year from Sony.

An old Olympus E-510 with Zuiko 14-54 F/2.8 [fantastic lens]
A Olympus E-450 with the cheap kit ED lens 14-42. Good performer though

A Fuji X10 which in all honesty gives me the nicest pictures/colours of any of them. I use this for holidays abroad.

The 2 Olympuses stay for sentimental reasons as I bought them as my first DSLR's way back and they are now worth peanuts, so I keep.

I guess the Nikon is the front runner to go as I hardly ever use it even though it gives fantastic image quality if not iffy colours but doggie-doo to adjust and use while up at the eye. Nikon never considered the enthusiast section of the market insisting the camera was entry level so didn't require extra buttons. The Sony is streets ahead on this and so is Pentax.

Pentax focussing in artificial light will be a bit acedemic for me as I almost never take pictures in artificial light. 99% of my work is out door scenery/Landscapes/water scapes/steam rallies/air shows etc.. The Pentax would suit this down to the ground and it has half decent Jpegs. I would be tempted at A K5 but fit a Tamron 17-50 as the kit lens and look for something longer and wider at a later date.
Thanks for your help

[bakubo]

I prefer IBIS just because it works with even old lenses and everything else, but there are advantages and disadvantages to ILIS and IBIS. Canon and Nikon have stuck with ILIS. IBIS gives you the option of using so many more lenses and getting stabilization, but I never felt too constrained by having ILIS when using Canon DSLRs. I haven't checked lately, but there are many, many Canon mount and Nikon mount lenses that have ILIS so it isn't as tough to find something you want as it was 5+ years ago.

[alphaomega]

Returning to the original issue of the likely make-up of future Sony A mount cameras I would like to draw your attention to a new rumour on SAR
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sonys-fu ... d-cameras/

For a couple of years companies market “3D” as the huge future for the television and camera industry. It didn’t really work out fine (at least not on cameras). Nowadays “4K” is the big new marketing trend. And for the first time Sony has now 4k Televisions in Stock and shipping at Amazon (Click here) and Adorama (Click here). As you know the NEX-FS700 (here at BHphoto) can now shoot 4K via the use of the external HXR-IFR5 unit. I think that by end of next year also high end A or E-mount cameras could be able to shoot 4K. That is the “new” future.

Interesting explanation of 4K even I can understand here
http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cine ... tv-1048954
So 4K may end up in Sony's 2014 A mount camera releases (or not) with firmware upgrade provision for future standard and codec agreements.
Anyway, it looks as if Zeiss are not put off by Sony's antics and shifts of direction in A mount specifications. They are pushing on in FF and mirrorless apparently.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/zeiss-pr ... eiss-lens/
Interesting times ahead for those with deep pockets with new top performing Sony cameras fronted by Zeiss glass (or not).

[bfitzgerald]

I have to say that 4k is not going to get quick adoption this looks like a way for makers to try to get more cash out of consumers and it's getting a bit tiresome really. It's going to be a very slow long path for 4k with only gradual adoption. And when 4k tv's are again priced cheaply years down the road (just as HD ones are now) they'll try to throw 8k sets onto us at premium prices.

It's all a bit predictable really. And as most of us are stills shooters 4k is largely irrelevant. Not to mention the processing demands that editing 4k footage will bring making even 12 core pc's weep in agony. Sure they might put 4k on the next gen of cameras, but how many will actually use it? And I suspect most will be looking for stills shooting improvements and less on this video thing. I like movies, yes 4k looks really nice but let's get real here makers have clean run out of stuff to do, so 4k is about the only thing they can think of. And we've not even talked about bandwidth either 4k will be a hefty drain on that. I can barely stream normal HD let alone 4k.

As for Zeiss they're saying on their chart that CSC have higher growth (yet the recent figures showed a heavy slump) with only high end DSLR's stable. But then Zeiss are a premium optical company, so I can't actually see how they think average CSS/ILC user is going to buy Zeiss lenses.

Back to A mount the concern of this mirror less talk (from some users) is that Sony may drop support of screw drive lenses. This could have serious implications if it happens.

[alphaomega]

Reference Barry Fitzgerald's latest contribution above, anything is possible (even the impossible) with Sony on a roll. Anyway, not to worry about capacity. I started up with a PC in 1995 with 4Mb ram and 60Mb HDD and a processor that could just handle Win95 and Office 95 and look at where we are today. There is some G4 being rolled out and no doubt Sony will also have a new battery and inbuilt HDD in the camera to handle the stream of info.