The a mount is going mirrorless according to SAR

[classiccameras]

I have always wanted to know why did Sony move over to SLT, was it because they couldn't compete with Canikon OVF or was it to make the cameras smaller, more compact and lighter.
I'm not anti SLT and acctually quite like it.

[Greg Beetham]

I remember a Sony Japan announcement way back about reducing the amount of ‘mechanical’ stuff in the A-mount and I sort of wondered how they were going to accomplish that and still have retrospective compatibility, it looks like they meant a long term project to gradually morph the A-mount taking into account that older lenses would gradually fall into disuse, prompted by subtle changes and tweaks in the newer bodies that made newer lenses more desirable than old ones.

Which all meant extended torture for some of us as Sony sort of went into a phase where no one was sure if they were going to make anything we wanted again, including lenses?
During the period where they weren’t sure about what to do with the A-mount (the signed agreement with KM finally expired in 2011) Sony brought out a mount after their own heart, the E-mount, most likely with help from the expertise in ILC’s they had on hand after the KM camera body design and manufacturing purchase. (one wonders how much input they had though with the frequent changes in accessories and connection points)

The SLT turned out to be quite a good solution to the video problem with some extra benefits as well, but quite a few A-mount users would just like a dedicated still camera instead. And now it seems that the future is an MILC A-mount that is a step closer to the E-mount but how much extra distance is Sony going to go with that idea?

The A-mount aperture setting apparatus in the body is still mechanical and driven by a stepper motor, (added weight compared to an electronic aperture), same goes for the screw drive AF, it’s a gear box driven by a separate stepper motor as well (more weight), all that gear can disappear if you only mount SAM or SSM lenses so reading between the lines I wouldn’t be surprised if at least one ‘A-mount’ MILC appears with no screw drive.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if the A-mount is reserved for FF (questionable effectiveness of os-PDAF, but we might be surprised…maybe), and the E-mount is left as it is, APS-C.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

The mind of Sony is quite complex but I think a few insights would reveal more. It has been suggested that Sony were quite bitter about some rivals in the past, in some areas of consumer electronics. In particular evidently an entire team "fell on their sword" and left the company when Nintendo released the Gameboy. It was said that this should have been a "Sony product" and it was unforgivable that they overlooked this. More recently the ipod sent shockwaves through the company, Sony got completely caught with their pants down by Steve Jobs and Apple. It pretty much wiped out their relatively successful Walkman brand in one swoop. This hurt Sony a lot no questions about it and again they surely wished that it was their product that defined the market.

Fast forward to now, and Sony are struggling in many areas of consumer electronics. Samsung in particular have caused them no end of pain in the TV, mobile phone (and smartphones), and the computer area too.

They have a few areas where they have done quite well in the past, they redefined the home video game market with the playstation beating out 2 of their main rivals (and causing one maker Sega to actually withdraw from the hardware market entirely) This is held up as an example of Sony at their best, with slick marketing and a cutting edge product they can do well even v established makers. Though they were unable to repeat that success later on with Nintendo and Microsoft being more aggressive in that market.

Bottom line is Sony can no longer rely on TV's, Phones, PC stuff and other consumer electronics to drive their market share or profits. Other makers now offer comparable products if not better and priced more competitively. This is why IMO Sony are going down the EVF no mirror route. They probably feel that they are driving change, some call it disruptive technology. Unfortunately for Sony the DSLR market is quite unique, with specific needs and an overall system to maintain. I also feel that most users are quite resistant to sudden or quick changes in products and this has a counter productive effect on the market (esp for DSLR type cameras, less so the ILC ones)

I don't think Sony have worked this out yet. I don't think it's unrealistic to suggest that the EVF aspects or DSLR type cameras is overall not appealing to "the majority" of potential buyers (and def not as an only product offering) So if you make a product where say 70% of potential buyers won't even look at it (right or wrong) based on a design choice, you're pretty much onto a losing strategy straight off. That's why SLT has not had any real impact on the market, and I suspect that the new wave of no mirror cameras won't actually make that much difference either.

As for gimmicks well I don't care there is stuff on these cameras I don't use often or at all, but it cannot come at the expense of basic sound stuff. I shouldn't have to comment on questionable design/product choices (annoying nag screens, bad jpegs etc etc) because someone designed a product who didn't really understand the users needs properly. I don't rate the sweep panorama much anyway, lots of shutter wear for relatively low res shots some of which have motion blur issues. This stuff is minor and comes well behind obvious things such as a proper competitive flash system, a better lens range, and offering a broad range of products to meet various users needs.

I said SLT would only get any traction if Sony were willing to price it at appealing levels, the A99 showed us that Sony expect people to pay more (for what is argued is less in some ways) That strategy won't work v Canikon, Sony will only gain market share if they accept they have to offer a price incentive to people and not just on bodies (ie pricing non IS lenses at IS lens prices isn't helping either)

That's my take, and I suspect I'm right.

[classiccameras]

I think Sony have always seen themselves as a cut above the rest, a sort of exclusiveness if you like in the market place, and this is fairly evident with their [franchised] stores in most towns high streets.
The Selfridges of the electronic media world, but its come back to bite them in a big way.
The rot started before Samsung when Panasonic overtook Sony TV sales a few years ago and Sony never recovered from that in sales and embarressment. Made worse by Samsung jumping on the band waggon as Barry said.

My local Sony store sells cameras, but only the cam corders, P@S and NEX cameras, I have never understood why they didn't sell DSLR's.
My local John Lewis has a full range of Sony cameras including after market lenses. My local Curry's which was just a stones throw from a 'closed' Jessops store now has a huge array of cameras, more than I have ever seen on their shelves before, although some of that may be because their sister company Comet closed. If Sony are rudderless, then G-d help Olympus.

[bfitzgerald]

Problem with electronics is they become so much cheaper over time. PC's used to be expensive now they are dirt cheap, same for TV's and other goods. With reduced margins makers are desperate to find a way to wow people technology wise. Rest assured there is a photo of Steve Jobs in some office pinned to a dart board, with a group of Sony folks trying to work out how to make the next "killer product"
So a no mirror A mount range of bodies is what they pin their hopes on (ala ipad/ipod we got there first thinking). And like Apple Sony think they can charge a premium for their products.

Apple are smart, they make products that have 3 things, they are simple (to use and operate, minimal controls), they are premium priced (ie usually the most expensive) and they are in demand. It's not going to work for Sony though, a no mirror DSLR type camera even with 4k isn't going to hurt Canikon. What Sony can't work out is if they had started the "real affordable FF revolution", ie an A99 priced "below rivals", they could cash in to those premium lens sales that some folks buy.
If they try the same stunt again (ie like the SLT range) priced not below but above others, they'll just walk away with another bloody nose.

I actually think it's so simple that Sony have missed what the camera market is all about. Shoving cybershot stuff into more enthusiast cameras isn't enough. Until they accept they have to be the value bang per buck brand, I doubt they'll even get 10% market share for DSLR's. FF is where a lot of the action (and profits) is going to be in the next few years, the more people you bag on this one..the more cash comes through the door. Think Canon EOS 300D some 10 years ago, started the company on the road to DSLR domination. Whoever breaks the £1000 price point for a FF DSLR is going to command the market.

[alphaomega]

Barry Fitzgerald may be quite right in his musings about Sony and their recent difficulties in a lot of markets where they used to dominate and their misunderstanding about the essentials of the DSLR market.
I think that the new CEO wants to get back to the good old days. It is doable. Steven Jobs left Apple. They sunk to the ground. He came back and resurrected the company.
I came across this bit in DPReview
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/23 ... yer-sensor

Although the fine detail is not clear (a combination of being written in repetitive 'patentese' and in Japanese means it doesn't lend itself to precise machine translation), it seems Canon's design uses a physical structure that causes light to resonate within the sensor, increasingly the likelihood of the red light being captured.

Canon is not alone in working on layered sensors - Sony has also published several patents in the area, hoping to avoid the risk of color moire and loss of color resolution that exist in the conventional Bayer design. (from Egami blog)

As stated, Sony have several Foveon like patents already. Would not be surprised if some of the 2014 releases feature such a sensor among other goodies.
There was also the Honami rumour I referred to earlier with better Jpeg engine
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-new- ... ike-rx100/
K4 and what have you including an even better EVF. So Sony are gearing up to try and regain the top innovation spot. They may or may not succeed, but at least it looks as if they are trying. Lots of people would applaud a Foveon type sensor if its good and does not empty your bank account.

[classiccameras]

Don't forget that Sony are the largest share holder in Olympus, so there is a possibility that some of their technology could cross over.

At the moment, Fuji seem to be leading the way with their X camera sensors, and I think there are more exciting things to come from that company.

As for mirrorless, I have a Panasonic G3 and the EVF is excellent as is my A37, I certainly don't miss the looking down tunnels on some OVF cameras with hard to read information round the edge of the screen.

[bfitzgerald]

Well the tunnel OVF's are down to a lack of effort from makers and I don't disagree they are not overly impressive.
On the other hand if Pentax can make a DSLR with a 100% Pentaprism OVF (similar in size to the D7k) with dual dials and weather sealing and sell it currently for under £500, then it can't be "that expensive" to do.

I've always been a bit disappointed that the 5 series models never got dual dials and better viewfinders. Had hoped Sony would at least go dual dials for the 6 series models too. You have to go up to the 7 range to get there and I think Sony will need to look at this line up in various ways. I'd also like to see some manual flash output controls on the built in flash at various price points, as well as the ability to use set Auto ISO. Maybe an 8 series model will turn up who knows. Then Sony will have too many models again.

It's not easy to define a model range that is broad enough and good enough to compete with other makers. I do think Sony need to up their game quite a lot here though. I had a chance to try an A58 the other day and I'm still scratching my head why Sony would shelve the other model updates and run with that one.

[bakubo]

Since yesterday I am in Tokyo. I have been in several of the big camera stores and have not seen a single A58. They have the A57, A65, A77, and A99. That is all the Alphas I have seen.

[Greg Beetham]

Didn’t I see somewhere the A58 wasn’t going to be sold in Japan? or was that another model, I should have paid more attention I guess.
Apart from getting the new hot shoe interface ‘out there’ I’m not sure what purpose the model serves, it seems to be a slight upgrade from the A37 and a downgrade from the A57 so it’s anyone’s guess what the plan is, it seems the A37 is apparently being discontinued and the A58 introduced while the A57 is still available, for the time being here at least.

There was an insert in the Saturday paper here with pages of cameras, lots of DSLR models listed for Canon and Nikon in double page spreads and for Sony there was a page full of NEX’s and lenses plus a few compacts, and another page announcing the new A58, the only SLR-ish camera on it, they also had the RX100, HX50, HX300 and some video cams, they didn’t list the A57, A65, A77 or A99, as a consequence the Sony spread looked cybershot orientated by comparison to what the other guys were offering.

Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung had a presence in the spread as well of course, but I’ll have to cultivate my attention span a bit there, not that there is anything bad about them of course, just not quite my cup of tea.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Greg it looks to me like Sony had planned a few more models (maybe A65/77 updates) and this got "shelved" for some reason (as the sites say maybe the no mirror range next year) The strategy with the A58 can only be to offer it at really cheap prices, in a few months. I would expect it to fall to below £299 with a kit lens, possibly they might even try to get down to the budget 35mm era prices of £199 body and kit.

At that price point (a watershed mark) for DSLR's it might do ok cheapo plastic mount and cut down stuff or not. If they're taking out remote ports and downgrading the build that can only work if the price reflects that. Some say that the A57 was too close to the A65 and hurt the sales of that model. Who knows.
I don't see the A58 working in any other way it has to be cheaper than rivals or it's dead in the water.

[classiccameras]

I couldn't resist a bargain when I see it, an almost new in showroom condition A57. Owner part exchanged it for the new A58 after only 9 Months. He can't be that fussy then. I negotiated for body only and they agreed for £289. Wow.

[bfitzgerald]

It's by no means a bad body esp at that price, just don't go looking for green lines that's my advice

[Heidfirst]

Apart from getting the new hot shoe interface ‘out there’ I’m not sure what purpose the model serves, it seems to be a slight upgrade from the A37 and a downgrade from the A57 so it’s anyone’s guess what the plan is

The A58 evidently is a reposition rather than a straight replacement & there were at least 2 other SLT bodies planned for release this year (quite possibly repositioned too) that were then canceled at a very late stage. It's therefore not surprising that the range is currently looking slightly disjointed.

[bakubo]

The A58 evidently is a reposition rather than a straight replacement & there were at least 2 other SLT bodies planned for release this year (quite possibly repositioned too) that were then canceled at a very late stage. It's therefore not surprising that the range is currently looking slightly disjointed.

If the A58 is a replacement then it is strange that I still have not seen one here in Japan. Just the A57, A65, A77, and A99.