Mirrorless rumours

[Atgets_Apprentice]

I suspect the A58 will be primarily marketed towards the first time DSLR buyer who probably won't have too much idea of what quality to expect for the money.
Its an attractive price at Curry's and many first time buyers will be wooed by the 20mp for such little money. For the uninitiated pixels sell cameras.

Not in every Currys. My local branches don't stock Alpha or NEX anymore, just Cybershot, and at the same time, carry the full pro-sumer body ranges of Canon & Nikon.

If a major retailer like Currys loses confidence on your two main ranges, you are pretty much screwed, Sony.

[bfitzgerald]

I've seen the A58 in Curry's/PC World, though I suspect some branches may or may not stock it. I'd imagine Argos will carry it (they usually do a few Alpha models)
From what I can see though it's far from setting any sales records, or attracting a lot of interest. (from either A Mount users or anyone else!)

If the price dumps down to £250 with a kit lens it might shift a bit. It's really not the kind of camera you pick up and go "wow must buy this" I'd recommend a grab in a shop if you can, DK is probably right it's the cheapest feeling Alpha model Sony have ever released (and yes the A200 felt better in the hand/build despite also being a budget model)

I'll disagree with DK on the price, currently it's £379 cheapest I've seen, once you handle one you won't want to pay that price for it (esp with A57/65 price drops) those models just feel better built. Nothing special about that price there are D3200's and 600d's around that price level.

[classiccameras]

My local John Lewis has one but I can't remember what they were asking for it.

It was no accident or blunder by Sony that the A58 came on the market, it was a deliberate sell to bide them over untill the rumoured new technology models come out. Its cheap and 'nasty' because Sony did not want to invest huge sums in an interim model which may only have a short production run. In a way it is a display model to tell passing customers that Sony are still making DSLR's [SLT] cameras.
However, if Sony decide to market the A58 as their budget entry level camera then in my view that is a blunder. People are going to pick it up once in the shop and then put it down quickly and direct their attention to other brands such as Canikon and I'm sure aided by the sales person. To be fair to Sony, just pick up a Canon 1100D with its awful kit lens and thin plastic body!
Its all conjecture really and it will all come out in the wash eventually.

[mikeriach]

Local Currys had both A57 and A58 in same cabinet.
Only lens was a Sigma 70-300 DL.

Mike

[bfitzgerald]

Yes the EOS 1100d is cheap and nasty too (strange plastic type non soft rubber grip that marks easily), but it's being blown out in some places for next to nothing (About £100 cheaper than the A58) and I've seen some double kit deals that are also very good with that model. I'd imagine the EOS 100d will replace it once the price drops down. That model might do quite well for Canon, recycled sensor or not.

Sony would want to have something to show fairly quickly next year, this year they'll take a hammering at all price points in the range. It's ironic that the A57 is probably Sony's best selling model, yet they'll cease production soon and evidently the A58 is supposed to "take over". To be honest I've not much interest in the A58 even at blow out price points, I didn't rate it much on paper, now I've had a chance to use one it's even less impressive/desirable.

Question is will the A77/65 continue this year? I can't imagine the SLT range would look very good with just one cheap budget model, and one expensive FF one!

[Greg Beetham]

I think Sony has painted themselves into a corner with their new hot shoe, unless they have something available to take over for the models in the middle range that are now on the endangered list.
According to the rumour something of substance won’t be available until next year and even when that happens will there be an equivalent to the A77? I have my doubts.
Thing is, for many retailers what A-mount gear should they put in stock at the moment? The massively expensive A99 and the el-cheapo A58 with nothing in between?
If they have any sense they won’t want to put the A57, A77 and A65 in stock and sell those to their customers (and look them in the eye knowing the i-shoe is history along with the flashes) when they know those models days are numbered. (i.e. why did you sell us this camera when the accessories for it were being phased out and/or no longer made by Sony?)
And now with the rumours that the A-mount is headed for another systemic change in the mirror-less direction who knows what current accessories will work properly when/if that happens.
The NEX and the E-mount has had a rather haphazard track record as well as far as accessories and attachment points go, which could also affect confidence in it as a dependable system.
On the other hand they have the Nikon and Canon mounts which have so far maintained their system quite well since the last time they changed things many years ago.
Which if you were a retailer, would you recommend to your customers, a choice of those including Sony, or would you tend not to mention the Sony alternative unless specifically asked?
Greg
Ps I think the 100D is there simply for the small market, you want small? We got small.

[agorabasta]

So, for pixel-lovers, I did a fast test last Saturday with the 3 24mm primes I have:
Zeiss 24f1.8;
Minolta MD 24mm f2.8 (49mm filter size)
Quantaray (Sigma) 24mmf2.8 "Macro" with a plain adapter (I didn't use the LA-EA2 even if I believe it doesn't reduce quality)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xltj4i70ugfwnqp/LhQum6PDqu

3 pics with each, at f2.8; f5.6 and f11 -focus on the restroom's sign. All in-camera compensations turned off.

Pako,

I didn't do any special tests to put them up here, but I have some samples made earlier exactly for the testing purposes, plus some more snaps.
Those are with the Sigma 19&30mm original DN's.

Here's the link - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hsxucja7ltgkeyn/GwNx5kobgd

I think both those lenses are sharper than that ZA, although I'm not quite happy with the 19mm one as its field curvature and CA are both too high and really limit the edge/corner res.

[classiccameras]

Not sure if this is right, but I read some where that the A58 was a entry level replacement for the A37 which was also their entry level model until it was discontinued.
There is no comparison, the A37 is miles better than the A58, they really have dumbed down from the A37/57.

[bfitzgerald]

The hot shoe thing, IMO was ill advised and Sony made a big thing about "listening to users" (cough) and this is how they respond. DK might be ok with it, but it's one less reason to want to buy a new product for an existing customer. Sure I don't always use a flash, and if something great came along you'd "learn to live with it", but it's hardly a great move from the company.

Worse they didn't even bundle the adaptor with the A58 either, so all those Sony flashes (still for sale with no adaptors either for the new shoe bundled) won't actually work with a Sony camera (insane madness of the highest order!) It's not the end of the world but it shows some flawed thinking from Sony, and they want £25 for the adaptor too, probably costs 50 pence to make it. (another cash cow)

Looks to me like the new CEO made a blunder and cancelled the replacements, in reality they should have cancelled the A58, it's cheap/nasty, and badly stripped down and as above actually offers less in some respects than the A3x series did (tiny buffer being one problem) Let's just hope they don't dump screw drive lenses or do some other insane things next year, that really will spell abandon ship for some folks. Even at £200 I'd have to think about it, it's really so cheap feeling I was quite shocked when I picked one up. I suspect it's going to bomb sales wise and will end up in the bargain bin at some point, the A99 has probably bombed too (for entirely different reasons overpricing in the EU one reason) 2013 can't be a great year for Sony, and that's their own fault really.

Ask any forum member to make a camera even for entry level, and I bet nobody would consider the A58 a viable or sensible choice.

[Greg Beetham]

Greg I was always under the impression the camera makers got the best margins off of lenses, accessories, flashes v the actual camera body. I would think that the higher end bodies have good margins on them, but not the other stuff. I'm sure they turn a profit on them, but it's likely not huge.
The A58 isn't going to sell that well in Europe for just under £400, so that will have to be bargain basement to shift.

A77/65 no idea if production continues, I've seen some grip deals (not in the UK though) I can't imagine Sony will cease production and leave such a massive gap in the important run up to Christmas.
It's a numbers game really if only 5 out of 100 people splash out on lenses and other stuff..some of those will spend a fair bit, some just a few things. I think it's always been the same way for DSLR's some folks buy one/kit lens and nothing else. It's the ones that do spend that drive the profits though.
IMO Sony need to "Gillette things" ie sell the bodies cheaper, make the money on the other stuff. Only way to attack Canikon with any kind of force.

If I were Sony I'd drop the A99 price down big time, it needs to be about £1300 odd to get competitive and start selling. Otherwise they're just missing the FF push that is going on (and I know of quite a few who want to upgrade to FF) A mount users are not going to pay a premium for a FF body over Canikon. I don't know what Sony were thinking on this one, if they were actually thinking that is. The more FF users Sony bag, at least some of them will be buying bits to go with it, hence more profits. Right now the A99 sales must be pretty poor in Europe it's just not worth the asking price

I tend to agree Barry, the business model where camera companies actually make money mainly on the accessories is probably valid for most but may be a tad more inscrutable with Sony.
It’s interesting that in the US they are running (or have had) a promotion on the A99 where they basically give away free accessories in order to sell the body, a free power grip and a free F60 flash, so they aren’t making any margin on those accessories.

I suspect Sony only have bodies to make a normal margin on, they have a facility to design and build new A-mount bodies from scratch so they are able to nominate a budget for a new body and work to that and also calculate how many they need to sell at a given price (may have some flexibility with that) to get to the breakeven point after which they have room to move on the price, all the way down to model extinction.
The world economic situation is doing its best to throw a spanner in the works though, so it’s probably more of a lottery now than it was in the past.

And yes I agree that leaving the 7 slot vacant is not a great move, you don’t sell too many 7’s if you don’t have any on the shelf, but hey, they did just that for two years previously, so it wouldn’t be covering new ground if they archived the A77 and didn’t replace it for a while, what would be new is not replacing it at all.

Sony as far as I know don’t have a specialist lens design and manufacturing plant specifically for the A-mount thus there is a range of different designs in the current system as they ‘shopped around’ for the best way to deal with the problem, to source lenses at the right price from various origins with differing methods of assembly (as the priorities changed from still only to still plus video).
Sony has appeared to drift away from screw drive AF (it’s noisy) hence the focus on SAM and SSM.

So if the above is close to the mark (Sony basically farms out lens production), they probably don’t have the kind of control over the end price they do with the bodies, who knows they might not even be a big margin item either due to stiff competition no matter how you arrange lens production, I can’t think of very many things that would be as difficult to invest in and make, all without any certainty of market success.
I think lenses get even more scrutiny and criticism than bodies do, it would be almost impossible to please everyone making lenses, it’s either got this that or the other problem or malady, or, it’s a great lens but it’s twice the price it should be etc.

So maybe Sony not owning an expensive specialist lens plant for the A-mount might actually be a good idea because they don’t get ‘stuck’ with inventory as much if Sony changes tack with body design direction (again) which may bring modification in requirements for lens design, it might be more flexible to play it that way, but I’m only guessing.

It could be that third party manufacturers are starting to wonder about trying to keep up with frequent systemic changes by Sony not only in the A-mount but the E-mount as well.
Greg

[classiccameras]

My biggest worry is if they make my KM lenses reduntant. I have more KM lenses lined up for future purchase but that's now on hold. They really are giving us a helping hand to jump ship, crazy.
Tamron were Sony's biggest supplier including most of the CZ zooms, but i'm sure they had more than one source.
I think in the future and looking back, like the A580, the A57 and A37 will become collectables a bit like the Nikon D90 is today although I believe production was continued way past its sell buy date because of popular demand and that was only a 12mp camera!hiccup! Used ones are still highly prized by Nikon devotees. Take note Sony, they listened to Nikon users.
It seems Sony are in a state of flux and look like they are running rudderless with a complete alienation from Sony fans/users. In fact I don't think Sony for one moment appreciates the fan base such as this Web site/forum unlike Canikon who seem to be giving what people want.

[Heidfirst]

Tamron were Sony's biggest supplier including most of the CZ zooms,

Do you have any evidence that Tamron made the Zeiss zooms?
Afaik nobody that knows has talked as to where the ZAs are made other than that they are made in Japan.
Certainly Canon, Nikon & Pentax have alsoo outsourced at least parts of lens production to Cosina, Sigma, Tamron & Tokina over the years.

[classiccameras]

I was told at a camera open day at a dealer in London. I can only repeat what I was told. If its wrong, so be it. I also read it somewhere on a KM Lens review site. Its well established that most outsourcing of lens production is from more than one source for the cameras concerned.

[bfitzgerald]

Not sure about Zeiss manufacturing, I think we can safely assume some of the Sony lenses are made by Tamron (the 16-50mm f2.8 looks a likely candidate) not sure about other lens designs. Interestingly I noted the 18-135mm was "Made in Japan" too, some of the budget stuff is made in China (easy choice primes etc) I think the kit lens is made in Thailand. I'm not really sure where Sony's own lens making facilities are.

[classiccameras]

Thanks for that, its interesting to note that when I was using an Olympus DSLR [E-510 + 620] many years ago, apart from the cheap kit lenses 14-42 and 45-150 which were made in China [probably the best kit lenses on the market then] as were the entry and mid range bodies, nearly every thing else was made 'in house'. Not many camera manufacturers can claim the same.
The optical performance and build quality really was a step up from the run of the mill Canikon and Sony lenses at the time.
The trouble with out sourcing lens production from several sources is keeping the continuity of performance, style and build quality, which is probably not that easy to maintain. I suspect Sony just tells the lens maker, here's the 'spec' get on with it.