Mirrorless rumours

[David Kilpatrick]

As far as I know, Tamron does not assemble any zooms labelled as CZ. Sigma is responsible for some optical component/group supply and for the coating on some CZ/Sony lenses, but Sigma has done CZ work for a long time. The only reason I can confirm this is because Sigma installed a new coating system, supplied by CZ, in order to be able to meet Sony requirements for a "300mm zoom" (whatever that may mean), in 2012.

Sony would appear to have assembly lines in Japan, Thailand and China and to work with several third parties including Konica Minolta and Tamron (on Sony wide and super zooms, 11-18mm, 18-XXXmm). The CZ 16-80mm was initially made in China after being prototyped in Japan, but suddenly transferred back to Japan where it seems there is a Sony/CZ joint facility - they scrapped the plan to move this to China. However, China is now assembling RX100 and many other products including CZ lens units. The old Minolta Sakai plant initially passed to Sony management (we know that because of information from staff members who saw the equipment being moved out, along with their jobs) but here's the odd thing - it now looks as if KM moved the equipment, not Sony, because the rumours now are that Sony G lenses are in effect outsourced to their old maker, Minolta at KM.

The earthquake and the Thai floods caused massive disruption. Sony's Thai assembly line was completely under water, Sigma's plant is on the edge of the earthquake/nuclear plant zone and only lost two or three machines to damage, and kept on working. Sony had either one or two optical plants well clear of the zone. In the last year and a bit, the whole production game has changed because sub-contracted component supply and assembly fulfilment ended up being redistributed not just between existing sites but to new ones, and crossing country boundaries.

Olympus will just add to the overall huge mixture of the 'genetics' of any product. While I think you can safely say the serial number is attached in one place, I don't think you can be sure where any of the parts of any product come from, who makes them, etc. Some parts of Japanese lenses are now made in Europe, just the same way the reverse happens. It's actually just like Germany was in the pre-wwII period, dozens of optical shops and camera engineers all making their own specialised bits for each other (and that is also how the Japanese industry started). The anomalous period is the two or three decades when the big camera makers wanted to do EVERYTHING in house. China is also helping to take things back to the 'many hands make light work' pattern - many engineering and optical shops all competing to supply each part or element.

David

[classiccameras]

Thanks for that clarification David.

Pete

[pakodominguez]

Olympus will just add to the overall huge mixture of the 'genetics' of any product. While I think you can safely say the serial number is attached in one place, I don't think you can be sure where any of the parts of any product come from, who makes them, etc. Some parts of Japanese lenses are now made in Europe, just the same way the reverse happens. It's actually just like Germany was in the pre-wwII period, dozens of optical shops and camera engineers all making their own specialised bits for each other (and that is also how the Japanese industry started).

Sounds like Airbus

[agorabasta]

Sounds like Airbus

The funniest thing here is that the same parts as used in the Airbus flying coffins are now easily put together into something like an Embraer 195 which is the safest and most comfortable mass-produced r-jet on the market...

[bfitzgerald]

Wandering back to the "rumours"

Quite an interesting one on SAR
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-sony ... eneration/

Lots of responses too, the text is:

1) I have been told that 2014 will be THE YEAR for A-mount. It means that Sony is aware that they have to succeed in the High End camera market to make profit. And Sony does believe that the DSLR form factor and the A-mount are the key success to achieve this gold (and not small E-mount cameras).
2) First A-mount mirrorless FF and APS-C cameras to hit the market in early 2014. They will be all mirrorless but maintain the current DSLR form factor.
3) AF, EVF and other key aspects have been considerably improved. The sensor is definitely 30+ megapixel and with phase detection pixels on sensor.
4) The cameras are not cheap. So I have been told Anyway, if they are really good than this aspect can be not so important anymore.
5) As I told you before Sony expects a great increase in A-mount lens sales for 2014 due of the impact of the new A-mount cameras.


I'd predict Sony will try to command premium prices, and again release fairly price FF and higher end crop bodies. (the not cheap comment was revealing)
Personally I've no idea about the lens talk, I think it would damage Sony to remove screw drive support

I said before I think Sony will just do the same as they have with the A99, launch it at a price above rivals, sell not that many and ponder why it didn't work!
I can't see people willing to "try" this EVF/DSLR type product at a price premium, they might if the products are priced below competitors. And I see no reason why Sony should expect to get as much if not more than traditional DSLR's if they save money on parts/production time etc.

That's just not going to work. Same as SLT strategy people might try it for less..few will for more.
I believe this is a basic Sony flaw, they just don't understand they are not the market leaders, and that pricing high only hurts their longer term sales.

[Mike-Photos]

Wandering back to the "rumours"

Quite an interesting one on SAR
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-sony ... eneration/

Lots of responses too, the text is:

1) I have been told that 2014 will be THE YEAR for A-mount. It means that Sony is aware that they have to succeed in the High End camera market to make profit. And Sony does believe that the DSLR form factor and the A-mount are the key success to achieve this gold (and not small E-mount cameras).
2) First A-mount mirrorless FF and APS-C cameras to hit the market in early 2014. They will be all mirrorless but maintain the current DSLR form factor.
3) AF, EVF and other key aspects have been considerably improved. The sensor is definitely 30+ megapixel and with phase detection pixels on sensor.
4) The cameras are not cheap. So I have been told Anyway, if they are really good than this aspect can be not so important anymore.
5) As I told you before Sony expects a great increase in A-mount lens sales for 2014 due of the impact of the new A-mount cameras.


I'd predict Sony will try to command premium prices, and again release fairly price FF and higher end crop bodies. (the not cheap comment was revealing)
Personally I've no idea about the lens talk, I think it would damage Sony to remove screw drive support

I said before I think Sony will just do the same as they have with the A99, launch it at a price above rivals, sell not that many and ponder why it didn't work!
I can't see people willing to "try" this EVF/DSLR type product at a price premium, they might if the products are priced below competitors. And I see no reason why Sony should expect to get as much if not more than traditional DSLR's if they save money on parts/production time etc.

That's just not going to work. Same as SLT strategy people might try it for less..few will for more.
I believe this is a basic Sony flaw, they just don't understand they are not the market leaders, and that pricing high only hurts their longer term sales.

Not that many people put much stock in him, but Ken Rockwell is having a whale of a time with his A99 and Minolta lenses.
Up to now, he's refused to even look at Sony stuff, and he's been quite the EVF basher, but that was before he used it.
It's a recurring pattern I see - playing with an EVF in store is not the same as using it in practice. It takes an adjustment, but once you have adjusted, for many people the pros outweigh the cons.
Therefore, I agree completely with your point on price, what Sony should be doing is being extremely aggressive on the camera price point. Their lenses are similarly-priced to the competition, but they don't have IS built in, so there's plenty of margin there. And, they are saying they want to sell lots and lots of lenses, so why make the initial purchase a stumbling block? It boggles the mind.

[agorabasta]

Mirrorless A-mount hangs entirely on AF performance.

Some of that tech will be making way into an updated Nex7 - that's when we know it.

[Greg Beetham]

Well, I’ll believe it when I see it, a ‘high end’ A-mount mirrorless, I wonder how ‘high end’ they are talking? 1DX high end? D4 high end? Or maybe they mean more medium-ish ‘high end’…whatever Sony and SAR are smoking I want some, it must be good.
Greg

[bfitzgerald]

Ken Rockwell is mostly having fun playing with some "good old Minolta glass" which he previously ignored or didn't look at. Fun factor here is the good prices on many Minolta lenses, there are some good bargains out there and some capable optics.
BTW I've used more than just the A57 EVF wise, but not the A99 as of yet. I have the A77/65 models.

Point is at a certain price bodies become "more appealing". If they started selling the A77 at a blow out £500 odd I might even look at it, I would not however have paid the original release price of £1150, I wouldn't pay the £700 odd they want now for that model.
A99 is the same, it's just nipped under (slightly) the £2000 mark, it's a tad more than a D800!

Sony are fooling themselves if they think they can price gouge on bodies. People will just either dump the system or buy s/h bodies.
More to the point if this "wonder" FF 36mp body turns up next year, what's the point if they put it out at £2500 odd. How much will a D800 be in 7 months time? Or more worryingly how cheap are the D600/6d going to be?

Sony are not even trying to compete, and just because folks can ebay some nice Minolta glass for low prices, that doesn't mean they want to pay over the odds for a new A mount body. The market is moving and fast, even high end APS-C D7100 is now £870 odd. What hope for Sony to bring out some mirror less DSLR type body and try to get £1200 for it?

It's pointless. Don't they understand the camera market? I doubt it
If you were to paypal me £2000 to buy an A99 this afternoon, I would not in honesty spend it on an A99. I just don't think it's worth that price, I suspect most feel the same way. And I have a decent bit of FF glass too, but I don't believe in throwing money at something that's not good value/bang per buck.

[Dusty]

Sony doesn't have a clue about 'real' (traditional SLR type) photography, and think that they can use their point&snap sales model for DSLRs.

Until they get a photographer to run their DSLR division, they'll keep losing customers.

Dusty

[agorabasta]

Greg, just imagine an a99 sans mirror inside

[bfitzgerald]

I've done my bit Dusty. I even emailed that guy I spoke to at Sony with a comprehensive list of "problem points" for Sony.
I included the odd flash shoe change (and lack of bundled adaptors), flash system weak points, the iffy jpegs, the missing lenses, the lack of OVF models, and poor prices on some models like the A99, as well as a rather iffy lack of support via firmware updates.

He said he has emailed it on to the Sony team, in reality it's probably gone in the trash box! But hey I've tried, some of this stuff is so basic it's really scary we even have to talk about it. I doubt Sony will ever make another DSLR with an OVF again. But they are misinformed if they think folks are just going to snap up "more expensive" EVF models with a Sony badge on them. It's just not going to happen, same as it hasn't with the SLT models

Maybe the A99 is good, but reality is it's getting hammered out there and is considered to be overpriced. I can't see how repeating the same mistake will give a different result. Still we can always pick up an A58 to "tick us over"

[Greg Beetham]

Greg, just imagine an a99 sans mirror inside

Yes agorabasta, I already have and it didn’t do anything for me. You take away the light diverting SLT mirror and PDAF that’s compatible with screw drive lenses goes with it (from what we’ve seen so far), and then you put PDAF and CDAF on the sensor and waste a whole bunch of light that won’t be used for imaging, and so far there hasn’t been on sensor AF equal to a ‘high end’ camera either.
So you can see how I might be suspicious of claims about a ‘high end’ A-mount mirror-less camera becoming a reality, despite it being an ‘honest Joe’ rumour you could trust (absolutely) straight from the horse’s mouth…truly really.
But hey! Look at the bright side, Sony gets to sell a whole bunch of more compatible lenses for it, won’t that be swell.
Greg
Btw well done Barry, bothering to keep Sony informed about stuff they should already know themselves if they had a clue.

[classiccameras]

Secretly, I think Sony wants to ditch A mount in favour of their CSC's. it seems to be an upcoming trend across the industry and they want to be right in there at the top.

Olympus went through a similar dilema when they stopped 4thirds in favour of M4thirds. Due to pressure from world wide 4thirds owners they had to promise a new 4thirds body to head off a mass exodus. Sony are finding themselves in a similat situation or will do if they continue on down the suicide route.

Pete

[bfitzgerald]

There is no technical reason why they can't do screw drive AF with whatever AF technology they use. Even contrast AF worked ok on screw drive lenses I had on Nikon and Pentax no problems.
If it does go, it will be a "choice made by Sony" rather than "they had to do this"
Bear in mind some of those pricey Zeiss lenses are also screw driven, it's not just the Minolta lenses they'd break AF with. 16-105mm screw driven, so is the 16-80mm, 50mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4 G, 100mm f2.8 macro, etc etc. If they go that path, I have no doubts it would be a very serious issue for many users and would hurt sales more than anything else.

And yes I included that in my "list to Sony" and advised them strongly against it.
I can't imagine a 85mm F/1.4 Carl Zeiss Plana user being too happy with out-laying that kind of cash on a lens that won't autofocus on a new body! It is possible they might drop it for the entry body, even there I would hope not. But this is Sony you never really know what they are up to, and usually they make the wrong choice.

Our suspicions are raised with the "talk of big increases in lens sales", and we wonder if this is why!