The future Alpha 99

Specifically for the discussion of the A-mount DSLR range
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peterottaway
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by peterottaway »

To each his own.My first computer was an IBM 360. A rather elderly machine by that time which was coded by punch cards using Cobol. I'm not sure how many people would know what I am talking about without looking up Wik********.

Since then I have used Apple 11 with and without CPM. various Commodore machines as well as Apple Macs, various Unix boxes from companies such as Data General as well as many incarnations of MS-DOS and Windoze as perpetuated by the geek and monkey boy. All I can say is if you enjoy delving under the hood nothing or for learning whats under the hood, nothing beats a well implemented Unix box.

For those so inclined, then Macs and Mac OS are not satisfying because they simply work most of the time. Like with everything a little thought and technical knowledge helps.

Micro$oft with its various anti competitive conspiracies and wholesale theft of code and IP ( Sumsung has done a damned fine job of copying them) is with Michael Douglas' greed is good speech is the ultimate expression of dear old senile Ronnie Rs vision of the 1980s. Just look at the tens of thousands of how to do books, all the training sessions and outside consultants plus all those extra IT people that had to be employed to get them simply started let alone to keep them working. All that money and those billions of hours wasted on totally non productive effort. Why do you think there are so many companies that once they got Windows XP up and running continue to use it ?

Oh how I like a good midnight rant. But it's just that I have become sick and tired of all those IP time wasters, the journalists and publishers on the gravy train. Plus all those narrow minded hicks and fanatics who rant and rave about the Apple religion without any knowledge of what they are talking about. I'm not the one having to remind myself about how great a decision I made whilst attempting to nullify the latest software glitches or hardware failures.

I use a number of Apple products because they work well for me and the hardware is reliable in comparison. And are rarely more expensive than similarly specified products from other quality companies.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I don't disagree about Microsoft far from my favourite company putting it mildly.
However they did get it mostly right with Windows 7, it's proven to be very reliable and not the resource hog Vista was.

Sadly they decided to land us with the awful Windows 8, whilst it's not the lumbering slow plodding mess that Vista was...I can't warm to it at all, and have grown to detest Metro for a desktop/non touch laptop.

And I've tried their little surface experiment too. The RT (arm CPU) one is a dead duck for sure the obvious problem is you cannot run windows software! (a bit of an oversight to say the least) there are few apps for it total write off. They picked the wrong CPU type and wasted everyone's time. My local store is trying to blow out Surface RT's at knock down prices to clear them out (nobody wants them)

The Intel based surface is better (ie it works with Windows software which is what you want) but it's expensive and bar jet set types who want a slim could be laptop type product I can't see it taking off. It's a shame really as Win 8 is actually ok for devices like this (I say ok but nobody cares about MS on tablet, MS should have known that) The add on fold keyboard is quite decent, so it could make an ok smaller laptop. But Ballmer and Co. blew it big time.

They had one shot at tablets and they messed up badly. Andriod and IOS rule to roost so forget MS for this product.
Onto PC's has to be said even Apple fans will admit there is nothing you buy in a Mac I can't build, and build it better for a more competitive price. Linux has come on leaps and bounds in recent years, so whilst it's not entirely practical to move to Linux for many of us, it's at least a decent OS and a viable option in some environments. I put Linux Mint on some school pc's a few years back worked a treat.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: The future Alpha 99

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classiccameras wrote:
Just on a lighter note, did you know that the Apollo moon missions used an Apple Mother board for their main on board computer.
Wouldn’t that be taking a RISC hahahaha :lol: (yes I know, I shouldn’t laugh at my own jokes)
Here is the Wiki article on the Apollo guidance computers, (one in the CM and one in the LM) it’s amazing what they could do already in the 60’s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer (2 MHz and a weight of 70lb)
Greg
Ps Barry Win7 as far as I can tell was already infected with the laptop bug (orientation) mine doesn’t seem to know it’s in a desktop and displays Adobe text/diagrams at very low resolution (text and diagrams with jagged edges) and I haven’t been able to find out how to fix it, I never had any such problem with Vista.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Neonsquare wrote:
Yes - my guess is that it was a mixture of different aspects. Nikon - like Canon do not very often bring new products like this. Most of the time it is just a new Mark of an old product. The higher the price the lower the product refresh rate. The Df is undoubtedly something "new" and it is a higher priced model. That are two points on the "sensation"-scale. Then comes the trendy "retro"-Effekt: Nikon does retro. Then the "puristic" aspect - with the Df Nikon tries to promise some kind of "back to the roots" of photography. There are a lot of photographers which still do not like creating video clips. A camera explicitly without video looks like being made particularly for them - even if it is not much more like a marketing gag. Actually I'm not surprised about the Buzz the Df generates. There are much more people generally interested in "things nikon". So why are there some many discussions on it? Because its a very controverse product: Its a new, high price Nikon product which actually technically seems to fit a quite small group of customers. If it is sold well, then only because of this retro/puristic marketing blub and not because of any intrinsic values.

We can only guess. I personally think that the buzz about cheap full frame coming with the 6D and D600 generated much more interest than another higher priced full frame model vom Sony. Count in that many people were unimpressed by the specs. Its DxO-Rating is lower (people believe in this faithfully), FPS slower than the A77, EVF not "revolutionary" improved. Video "not good enough". Don't get me wrong - I think the A99 is a very nice camera. Like the A77 it had something like a slow start after the first disappointments of unfulfilled SAR-rumors fade away and people start to see what is actually good about it.

If you look at the RX1 - it was a positive surprise. Similarily the RX100. I think the judges are still out on the A7/A7r. It generated quite a lot of positive buzz. The A7 was cheaper than anyone thought the "full frame NEX" could be. The image quality seems to be really good. On the other side: The AF did not impress and the problems with some rangefinder lenses add to the doubts about it. But it actually _seems_ to sell well. I see a lot of people here on german boards which preordered. And there seems to be a unusually high rate of switchers. The idea to switch from D800 to A7r for landscape and architectural photography seems to be quite common. One reason is using the Canon TS lens using the metabones adapter on the A7r and still being able to use the grown Nikkor lens portfolio.

Yes - thats true. Apart from dpreview my gut feel says that the A7/A7r generate more buzz than the Df. I was on a local camera trade show here these days and the Sony booth was CROWDED the whole day while the 5 Nikon guys stood there alone polishing lenses. I never seen a Sony camera produce that kind of buzz. Even people who have many reasons not to need one tried to find reasons allowing them to buy that thing. Its nearly "appleesque".

Yes - in a business sense you're right. We will have to wait if this product actually grows some customer base or if it is just DOA like the Nikon One. My personal guess is that the Df will not be successful.
Personally neonsquare I have no problems with video or making videos with equipment designed for the purpose (not that I have done so) but I do have issues with token gesture video buttons being put onto still cameras just so the manufacturers can claim the camera can do video, any kind of klutzy video will do, but it’s the impact video has on designing and producing the best dedicated STILL camera possible, that’s my issue, so far there appears to be trade-offs in both directions no matter what kind of design they use.

I suspect Nikon are reluctant to get involved with a mirrorless camera because of the effects it would have on their lens and flash systems, just like Sony (and customers) have experienced with the A-mount SLT’s and they are not even completely mirrorless…yet. I guess they could do a NEX if they wanted to but the NEX area is pretty much covered by the NEX (if in a rather haphazard fashion).

I’m wondering if Nikon is speculating that long time users who have an inventory of old MF Nikkors will choose the Df (or one of the D800’s) over the new A7-A7r offerings, perhaps they think that most of them will choose the Df as they then get a camera and mount made by the original company which will presumably be more useful and functional using those older lenses, and can use their current lenses as well; that it doesn’t have a video button could be seen as a plus by many, how many customers exist in that price bracket is still an unknown.

I would say there are scenic photographers using Nikon who wouldn’t consider the Df but would look closely at the choice between the D800e and the A7r, provided the A7r delivers the goods that is.

I still have lingering doubts about the vignetting/corner shading effect of FF adaptor/s used on the E-mount when using long register FF lenses, I have seen some lenses produce heavy vignetting in photographic tests while some don’t appear to cause much at all.
I would like to see someone who has both a D800 and an A7r use the same lens (say a 35mm or 24mm) on both cameras (using a tripod) focused at the same focus point in the scene to see if the angle of view is the same (coverage) in the images from both cameras using the same lens.
I’m not saying outright that the A7-A7r automatically crops (some?) long register FF lenses but I would like to see that checked out just the same.

As far as usefulness of the A7-A7r cameras go it’s up to user evaluation just how useful they are, or can potentially be for doing things.
I can think of one con straight off without even having to buy the camera; it is a mistake to supply such an expensive camera without a battery charger; who would want to have their expensive camera sitting there charging the battery via a USB cable when they paid for it to take photos? especially by all accounts they use up a battery at a rapid rate; they should come with a second spare battery AND a charger in the box.

Thinking about the A99’s video, the camera actually went up in my estimation when (some) people started complaining about the video it produced, that kind of gave me impression that Sony designed the camera as a still camera first and a video camera second.
I think Sony should continue with the SLT line for those who want an EVF and a camera that can focus while doing video, they should develop the SLT design more towards video along with expensive silent video lenses, some of those can cost $15000 or more, but hey, if you like doing video properly why not?

Sony should also keep one decent DSLR at all times for those who want a still camera without any on sensor AF and exposure clutter.
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by classiccameras »

Some good observations there Greg, I'm sure other people will have their views as well, but for me, nothing so far has tempted me to change my A57 or A37.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Sony have their work cut out esp in Video. Canon dominate that segment I see very little chance for Sony here.
70d has stolen their AF video thunder (and it works, unlike Sony's without silly limitations like f3.5 fixed for AF) Once Canon roll that out on their updated models next year, kiss goodbye to any SLT Video offensive.

Sony could of course address some of the video issues they currently have, like the annoying crop (even with IS on video off) or audio levels, or the lack of genuine high ISO settings, but I'd say more chance of finding Elvis in the local supermarket at the weekend.

I met another new shooter the other day (on a job I was doing)..she had a Canon 600d. I asked why she bought a Canon..
"Everyone says Canon make the best cameras"

Unless Sony can find a way to attack that..(and I've no idea bar being more competitive on price seems one way to me) I don't see much happening to change that, SLT, no mirror..doesn't really matter. It's the system really..you work that end of it and hard..then you hope it sticks. Sony have not developed the lens range or the flash anywhere near to the levels they should have.

As for models..well currently I don't see much appealing. 2 older models, one pricey FF..and talk of 4k new SLT models. So much for SAR! They said SLT was gone..guess they were wrong then. You're better off buying a s/h Sony right now
peterottaway
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by peterottaway »

I am attempting to get a Blackmagic camera.,the only trouble is that they take you order and you wait and then you wait some more. It would seem that someone has blundered and badly underestimated demand. After all it is a very small company trying to survive in a pool with some large sharks in it.

But given that you get video of varying quality with everything these days, it does beg the question as to the popularity of their cameras. Ok those of us with views that stills are stills and video is video are still about,and it seems that those of us who are not interested in competing in the worlds dumbest videographer competiton are a larger market than assumed.

This means that it is goodbye to Nikon as my secondary system. Not that that is overly disappointing as I seem to have been gradually falling out of love with Nikon for some time. My last major purchase was the D700 camera.
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by classiccameras »

Thats an interesting comment by the Canon owner. There is definitly a lot of reverence towards Canon in the photographing public. I'm not realy surprised given their long history of excellence. I said it before, if I was to jump ship Canon would be my first port of call followed by Pentax and no, I couldn't care less how good or bad their video performance was because I'm not interested. I have a high end Sony Camcorder for that, but it hardly gets used as my passion is stills.
At my level of photography and budget, I would possibly choose a second hand 550D or 600D or Pentax K5/30 and then look around for some second hand mid range lenses. I include Pentax vecause it has IBIS and a fab OVF.
Sony have no history or legacy in the stills market [most buyers will not associate the Minolta legacy] but do for their excellent camcorders, so I'm not surprised that when it comes to DSLR's, they are not generally in the publics eye as a first choice. Lets be honest Canikon have cleaned up and have done for years. Its interesting that Canon have had a lot fewer technical hitches than Nikon.
I'm told that M/4/3 is not doing well especially the overly expensive Olympus EM's and their small market fan base is beginning to 'burn' out. I think the A7 and A7r will start to eat into that market. People still want big sensors [APS-C or FF] with more compact bodies.
Barry's right if you intend to stay with A mount, buy second hand.
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by Neonsquare »

bfitzgerald wrote:Sony have their work cut out esp in Video. Canon dominate that segment I see very little chance for Sony here.
Don't rule out Sony to fast here. The RX10 is a real strong competitor for video. Sony downscales whole frames off the 1"-Sensor and other features of the cam simply make this an extraordinary video camera using a - as it seems - very good 24-200 F2.8 built in lens. It gets very good comments from the video guys.

On the other side: The A7r seems to offer quite good Video too - and it is much more flexible regarding to putting lenses for video on it.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Sony's video issues have yet to be addressed, they did a fairly poor job on the SLT models (video is ok but the limitations at odds with enthusiasts needs)
Most of the "action" happens in the £400-£900 market, that's where makers rack up big sale and it sets them up for up-graders later on down the road.

Your 650/60d user could be a 6d/5dMkIII down the line
This is exactly why Canon continue to dominate, they made their entry to mid models appealing and sold lots of them.

In contrast, Sony have faltered in 2013 quite badly. A mediocre uninteresting A58 replacing 2 models and not very well I would add. A65/77 are dated and only worth a look at a blow out price. What happens for Sony £1200-£2000+ is going to make very little difference to the market. A new A77 will likely be £1200 odd, and a 36mp FF £2000+ if not quite a lot more.

A7 might help them over the lucrative Christmas sales period, but it's not going to revolutionise or make a huge difference overall. Canon are too dug in for that to happen. If this were 6-7 years ago then it might be different. I don't actually expect much different next year, A77 will have a better sensor, a few extra bits maybe souped up AF system, better EVF..but not likely to be a must have even for A Mount users. 36mp FF well I don't expect much again bar a few tweaks.

4k isn't going to change much, most people don't have 4k displays or TV's.. It's really overhyped being dead honest and on it's own won't make much difference. Anyway in a few years all cameras will have 4k it's just another tick the box exercise.

Canikon are very firmly entrenched with their 70d, D71000 models..Pentax have a decent high end APS-C body too. A77 is going to have to compete with those, which it can..but Canikon are well priced it's very unlikely Sony will be able to compete with them there. Unless they have something awesome up their sleeve it's hard to see things changing much.

Whilst I think the A77 does need an update..it is extremely important Sony sort out the entry to mid point mess they currently have. A58 should be discontinued immediately as it's simply not up to par, they need a much better model that isn't cut down to the bone. A65 also needs to be a compelling mid range option, better sensor, option for a grip, improved ergonomics and I would add AF adjustments too. This is where Sony need to really attack..they have no hope in the full frame market at their current price strategy. It also seems highly unlikely the higher end APS-C market is going anywhere bar wildlife shooters.

If you had £1100 to spend would you really buy an APS-C camera? I predict enthusiast level APS-C models will be unable to command more than £700-£800 in a few years.
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by classiccameras »

It seems a lot of major camera companies are heading in the FF direction and with slightly cheaper models, trouble is, lenses suitable for FF are not keeping up with the required performance for the FF sensor unless you spend a lot of money which most people don't have.
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Re: The future Alpha 99

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@Barry
Still arguing that Sony should do exactly what Canikon does? It still not a good idea regardless how often you repeat it. Sony did have some very good products in 2013 - the RX1, RX100II, RX10, A7, A7r were quite well received. I often met Canon/Nikon-Users having an RX100 or RX100II speaking quite well about Sony. If you look an Canikon-Boards there is a lot of talk about the A7/A7r - and they sell like hotcakes. I think 2014 will be a good year for Sony camera enthusiasts.

And on the topic of Windows 7 - I'm developing on one every day. Its a quite mediocre OS. It was mainly Microsoft marketing hype that W7 had solved the mess of Vista.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Neonsquare wrote:@Barry
Still arguing that Sony should do exactly what Canikon does? It still not a good idea regardless how often you repeat it. Sony did have some very good products in 2013 - the RX1, RX100II, RX10, A7, A7r were quite well received. I often met Canon/Nikon-Users having an RX100 or RX100II speaking quite well about Sony. If you look an Canikon-Boards there is a lot of talk about the A7/A7r - and they sell like hotcakes. I think 2014 will be a good year for Sony camera enthusiasts.

And on the topic of Windows 7 - I'm developing on one every day. Its a quite mediocre OS. It was mainly Microsoft marketing hype that W7 had solved the mess of Vista.
I have to disagree. RX10 is a dud and will flop sales wise purely on price, be in no doubts about that. Any company that thinks £1000+ will fly in this market is fooling only themselves. RX100 has done ok because the price is better now, it's having 0 impact on the DSLR business.

It doesn't matter what Sony do Canon are blowing them out of the water in DSLR land. They do deals and so do Nikon..Sony do nothing!
Amazon are blowing out 600d's with £30 cashback AND a free 40mm f2.8 lens, guess what people will get it..and ignore the mediocre A58. Nikon have cashbacks on the D7100 it's just over £700 small buffer or not people are buying it hand over fist v the A77.

Half of Sony's SLT line up is out of date, half have a different hot shoe. You can buy a Canikon FF for £1300 odd, yet the A99 is still at a laughable £1850
You don't have to be a genius to see Sony have nothing to attack Canikon with bar the A7 which some might pick up, but few are likely to dump their entire system for. A mount got badly neglected in 2013, Sony discontinued their best selling model (a57) A65 is doing nothing sales wise, nor the A77. They gave us a plastic mount camera in 2013 for A mount, hardly a master stroke move. Don't expect 2014 to be much better Sony can't price it's products at competitive levels. For Canikon it's quite easy to brush Sony aside.

Sony gave us an overpriced Zeiss 50mm and new coating/AF motor on the 70-200mm f2.8...wow I mean just wow!

As for Win 7 it's not hype but reality..it's a solid OS, I've had very few issues with malware, it's stable, efficient and far better than vista. That's real world deployment and use (and pc services too) it's delivered and yes Vista was a mess..Win 7 is liked by most people, even Mac fans.
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by classiccameras »

I have to agree with what most people are saying, although I won't comment on computers.
Sony should not try and compete with the big boys, it simply won't work. To stay in a market thats evolving quite fast, they need products like the A7, they also need to be different which will atract attention, but they need to be competitively priced as well.
Canon are so well entrenched and established globally in the camera world that they don't need to bring out dramatic up dates on previous model. Subtle tweaks with loads of hype sells their cameras at minimum cost to them, probably the most dramatic thing Canon did of recent times was to introduce TS on the LCD. Wow, hardly revolutionary, Panasonic had that years ago on the G series.
Agree about the A57, I think it will stand out in its own right in a few years time as a high point in Sony's SLT camera line up as much as the A58 will stand out as a low point and is best fogotten, I wouldn't mind betting the 57 will be sort after like Nikon's D90 is, I read some where the 57 is already on the must try and get list by some Sony owners.
Lets not forget that the failings of Sony DSLR's/SLT sales is some what balanced out by the popularity of the NEX system, a system Canikon have not done. The A7 could do as well as NEX if Sony use some brains for a change and sell it at a come and get price.
On a more positive note, the reason I like Sony is because they take excellent pictures with superb colours, easy to use, very good body ergonomics, some excellent user imput adjustments and lenses that mostly out perform Canikon equivalents at similar price points, and IBIS of course.
There is a lot going for Sony cameras that Sony have failed to to capitalise on.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: The future Alpha 99

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

It's almost impossible to not compete with Canikon in some way or another. Ok mirrorless does have a different appeal and potentially different user, but in some cases buyers might be looking at a DSLR too. I'm just not seeing mirrorless cameras around in anywhere near the levels of DSLR's. There are some, but in Europe and the USA they've not really taken off that well.

So whilst some suggest the stay away from the top 2 is a good strategy, I think it's not realistic in the real world.
Nothing really changed for Sony with SLT, they cut some costs...gained no market share at all (they might have lost some who knows) Either way SLT or not they have to find a way to do better. My take is start utilizing the appeal of in body IS, start attacking those overpriced lenses with IS and offer people a real deal and reason to look at Sony.

A7 isn't quite the KO blow it could have been. Had Sony done IBIS, and phase detect AF off the sensor properly (allowing AF with an adaptor and no SLT mirror, including screw drive lenses..yes it's possible) Not the silly £300 adaptor that's too bulky and expensive. They might have wowed A mount users more. Right now I think Sony are just trying anything and everything, in a hope that something sticks.
Last edited by bfitzgerald on Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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