Sony 7r

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classiccameras
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Sony 7r

Unread postby classiccameras » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:01 pm

EphotoZine have just published their review of the 7R. They were a tad 'cool' about its IQ and were less than impressed with some other aspects, well that's how I read it.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby David Kilpatrick » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:38 pm

Not surprised. Great care needs to be taken with this. The shutter and the sensor are both prone to specific issues which work against its main appeal - the small body/small lens/huge image (Leica style) use. I am still working on my review mainly because of a need to be objective about matters which can get any owner very angry/annoyed...

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:45 am

Sony have published new products for 2014 which includes cameras and cam corders, but no sign of anything 'A' mount, unles of course they are keeping more announcements for later in the year? Doesn't look promising.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby peterottaway » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:21 pm

I have no information, just like Kirk Tuck with his claims of a trusted retailer and all the rest. All I can say is that an number of cameras that you would expect to be replaced by the middle of 2014 are now in run out mode. It just depends on what you believe come next. Either you accept the speculations of any number of conspiracy theorists or you accept that Sony is commencing a periodic refresh of its product lineup.

Given the ILCE 3000 and 5000 models it would appear that this will not be a 1 for 1 replacement of like for like. So for example it may be that the Nex 5,6.7may be replaced by only two new cameras or even by one Nex style body and a APS A7 style camera.

If the A/E hybrid exists and Sony do decide to product such a camera, then this is more likely to be announced at Photokina for 2015 introduction. As such a camera would involve much more technical experimentation and thought than say using a modified A77 / A99 body with some updated bits and pieces.

If such hybrid cameras are introduced then in a sense the A mount camera is dead in 2015. But that does not mean that the A mount lenses have nowhere to go.Although it may very well be that we get a modified mount on any new lenses.

Just a collection of ramblings when recovering from a 46C day so it is probably just the heat.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:49 pm

I’m curious about the intent of the latest marketing ploy Sony is engaging in with the E-mount and A-mounts, it looks like they are prepping everyone’s peripheral vision for a sort of merge camera at some point, more smudging and blurring of the distinction between the two mounts at the moment (the Epsilon mount cameras with the Alpha symbol right from the start was always a mind warp) dropping the NEX brand and naming new E-mount cameras with A-mount derivations, a-la A3000, A5000 instead of E3000 and E5000 most definitely has a purpose.
It’s either to merge the sales of interchangeable lens cameras under the one report heading (Alpha div.) so the figures look a lot better for the A-mount (dubious), or it makes the overall ILC sales figures look a lot better ‘together’ (E + A) than they do separately. (possible)
In order to submerge internally minor details like the two mounts are basically completely different systems they began giving all E-mount cameras A-mount model derivations. (devious but also possible)
But now there is a rumour of a merge camera, most likely an E-mount camera with an A-mount adaptor of some type already in place, but no hard details as yet. Interesting things like whether it will have IBIS or where the A-mount screw-drive motor will be, in the body or in the adaptor, or even if it will have a screw-drive motor all are anyone’s guess.
My tentative reaction is, which mount is merging with which? (take a guess, you'll probably reach the same conclusion as me)
Does it signal that E-mount cameras carrying the Alpha logo (to establish a kind of pseudo legitimacy) that come with an A-mount adaptor will be the new deal for the future of it and the A-mount, all dependent on sales of model types.
With careful manipulation of the whole thing Sony would be hoping a lot of people won’t even notice the gradual phasing out of the standalone A-mount, if the performance is unaffected (highly unlikely). :roll:
It wouldn’t be a surprise really as the A-mount has progressively been painted into a haphazard corner of diminishing returns, with lots of help from those who supported Sony doing it.
Those who actually buy the rumored future E/A camera will help seal the fate for the A-mount, as we knew it, the A-mount’s only hope is the new E/A camera will be so expensive not many will buy it. People will still buy it/them of course, it just depends how many do in preference to regular A-mount cameras, otoh Sony could help things along by not offering a choice, like they did with the DSLR vs. DSLT choice.
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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby Dr. Harout » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:59 pm

All depends on which is better: short or long flange (register).
As we see it now, UWA have some issues on short flange, i.e. a7/a7r
A99 + a7rII + Sony, Zeiss, Minolta, Rokinon and M42 lenses

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:59 pm

Japan sales figures are in (as ever it's just that region thus hard to tell worldwide)
Sony lost third place in DSLR's to Pentax/Ricoh (which is quite scary)
They increased in mirrorless, and slightly down in compacts (lost second spot to Nikon)

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/japan-20 ... /#comments

Obviously this doesn't tell us anything in other regions ie Europe and the USA, where ILC's have not really taken off that well. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony lost market share in SLT's in those regions, but as they say

"If you build it they will come" (aka Field of dreams!)
Or rather, if you try to sell old models (A65/77), don't update your range properly (ie A58 yawn yawn)...released an overpriced FF SLT model (which isn't going to boost market share anyway not in that price range) and discontinue their best selling SLT (ie the A57), you don't have to be a genius to see why Sony have slid in this segment.

I've no idea what Sony plan, there are rumours about a new A77..but nothing about the 6 series replacement
If they just do an A78 this year that would indicate to me something is wrong..it's the entry to mid range models that are by far the biggest sellers. If nothing turns up there then I would have to seriously ponder about what to do next, that could be a goodbye native A mount offering we shall see. I still find most of the mirror less offerings remarkably uninteresting

I'm not sure how Sony are going to offer a hybrid model, and I can't say on paper that would likely appeal much (again IBIS being the sticking point)

If things go belly up might as well just do a firestorm sell off and do what everyone else does, just buy a Canon :mrgreen:
I'm not crazy about Canon, but at least you know where you stand with them, there are never any "nasty surprises"

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby classiccameras » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:43 am

Greg, you could be right about Sony prepping us to convert from A mount to ILC. Olympus did this by dropping 4/3 and only producing M/4/3 with a dreadful take it or leave it attitude, to add salt in the wound, Olympus only offered a very expensive OM-D E-M5 with no budget model available and then said if you want to use your 4/3 lenses, the adaptor is over £200.

Olympus then had the nerve to say you can always use one of the Pen EP cameras for your micro system, no thanks I want an affordable SLR. This got right up the noses of the 4/3 fans and causing many to jump ship to other brands mainly Cannon. I jumped to Sony but now it seems I may have to jump again. As Barry said, at least with Cannon you know where you are and there is a huge choice not about to disappear just yet.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby peterottaway » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:43 am

I'm not into self flagellation, hair shirts or running around the chicken run screaming that the sky is falling. So I will wait and see.

Just remember that Sony electronics is more than just Sony still cameras. It is more even that the video side of the business and the sensors and related support components that it provides to third parties such as Apple iPhones and iPads etc. There are many other bits and pieces Sony produces and/or hold patents on that run the whole range of consumer electronics. An IR controller is after all an IR controller just as a minor example.

Now of course if you are filled with negativity, then your argument would be that financially Sony would be better off abandoning the camera business because it stands to reason that they are losing money and will continue to do so. Not only because they continue to ignore what you are telling to do, but apparently because they are not Canon ( or Nikon for that matter).

Different companies have their own internal logic as to the relative importance of various parts of their business. It may be that Sony never does make a real profit from cameras as opposed to meeting their actual costs of production and distribution but because of the technologies developed, production techniques and such like are important to the corporation as a whole. Plus of course for every dollar they earn that is a dollar not going to rival companies.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:03 am

No need to panic, but we should keep an eye on what happens this year from Sony. I've honestly no idea what they are planning, but in the past they've made some odd choices and have shown that they will follow a path that "they want" not what their "users want"

Hard to deny 2013 was a poor year for Sony for A mount, very little activity so it's no shock they slid on sales. 2014 is pretty important not for them, but for us if things are not improving and quite a lot then I've no desire for my re-sale value to tank on my lenses with a dead mount. We shall see what happens, but all their efforts were mostly E mount in 2013, it's hard to shake the feeling they are not overly interested in A Mount right now.

Ran across this interview on IR
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/20 ... mount-fans

I'm still not sure why Sony changed NEX to Alpha
As for compatibility well can I mount E Mount lenses on my A mount cameras?

Seems Sony use the "5" prefix as the new 3 series models. That would explain the new E mount body being more 3 series, it also explains the A58 being more a 3 series too.

Now personally I don't care what numbers they use, IMO though there is no need to dumb down the 5 series. Right from the film 5 to the 5d the 5 range was always a good sensible choice offering most of what you wanted at a price that was more bearable. If there is a new A77 then that leaves a high end APS-C and a low end one, nothing in between.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby bakubo » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:11 pm

classiccameras wrote:Greg, you could be right about Sony prepping us to convert from A mount to ILC. Olympus did this by dropping 4/3 and only producing M/4/3 with a dreadful take it or leave it attitude, to add salt in the wound, Olympus only offered a very expensive OM-D E-M5 with no budget model available and then said if you want to use your 4/3 lenses, the adaptor is over £200.


Actually, that isn't true. When the E-M5 came out Olympus was giving free 4/3 adapters away with it or you could choose a free flash. I chose the flash, but many other people chose the 4/3 adapter. My E-M5 + flash cost $999 which meant my body cost was $829. Not bad and I got mine in May 2012 (ordered in April 2012) so I was one of the early buyers. When the E-M1 came out Olympus had the same deal. I suppose the E-M1 deal is still going, but I haven't checked.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby classiccameras » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:58 pm

Yes, your right about the adaptor deal on the EM-5 but it never lasted that long in the UK. I will also say it was a big mistake not offering a more affordable version of the OM-D just to hang on to Olympus fans.
Barry seems to have got his observations right re Sony, cheap end, dear end and nothing in between, 2013, was a non year for Sony.

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:02 pm

Pete as much as I hate to say it I agree with you, its either Sony’s way or the highway.
I’m starting to become more watchful of the Oly system now, I never took much notice before, (the smaller the format the better for macro but I don’t know what they offer for macro shooters, I have recently included Oly on my awareness radar just the same), the problem with Oly is how long are they going to be around if they don’t sell all that well anywhere except Japan?
But then you could say something similar about Sony too, apparently Sony replaced their top man in Alpha div. in the USA recently because of very poor market penetration there, so it seems they have noticed they don’t sell many Alpha cameras in the US, and here was me thinking they only took notice of what the Japanese market wanted….

Yeah Barry I’ve heard about that M Weir interview before where he’s trying to explain how an E-mount NEX is really an Alpha ILCE camera and lives in harmony with A-mount cameras ever after…hmm I would have liked them to ask him (as you say) how you fit an Alpha E-mount lens on to an Alpha A-mount body if they are so wonderfully compatible. What a joke.
Maybe all you need is a healthy dose of make believe and you can grab any mix of lens and body without even looking and head off for some photographic pursuit or other. (just make sure they are pretty much all Alpha’s and Bob’s your uncle)
We have to take into account M Weir is a Salesman, he trots out the company line whatever it might be, that’s his responsibility, to promote the products as they want them promoted but I very much doubt he sets the actual policy, the policy most likely comes from the place where the product is made and branded, and it isn’t made in the USA, I reckon all this NEX conversion to Alpha ILCE is just a snow job myself, there is absolutely no reason why the NEX couldn’t continue to be marketed and sold under its recognized banner, as a NEX, unless there is an ulterior motive such as future NEX’s (or some of them) moving away from being NEXy like the E7’s err A7’s already have and become more like an A-mount camera in overall style.
At the sales counter: excuse me I want to buy a NEX, do you have any NEX’s? …..err no we don’t have NEX’s anymore they have been replaced by the Alpha ILCE…would you like one of those instead? Um no, I have no idea what an Alpha ILCE is, I was chasing a NEX.
It’s beginning to sound like another ‘Sony foot shoot ow’ to me, it’s amazing how well Sony can organize those. :roll:
Greg
Sorry Peter I really can’t make much of your post, I don’t give a toss what else Sony is involved in, I’m interested in what they are currently doing to the A-mount, (well sort of interested) it’s just fun trying to read between the lines, and lies, as far as I’m concerned Sony couldn’t lie straight in bed

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby bakubo » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

classiccameras wrote:Yes, your right about the adaptor deal on the EM-5 but it never lasted that long in the UK. I will also say it was a big mistake not offering a more affordable version of the OM-D just to hang on to Olympus fans.


I don't know about where you are, but the E-M5 has come down in price and still uses the current, good 16mp sensor as the later bodies. In the U.S. it is $799 now, I think. My $829 price in May 2012 when it was a brand new model looks pretty darn good now. If you are wanting a $300 body then you would probably have to go to the used market and even then I don't know if you can get an E-M5 that cheap. I am not sure, but I think the 4/3 adapter works on other older Olympus m4/3 bodies too.

So far, I am not tempted to get rid of the E-M5. This is the first digital camera I have owned going back over 13 years that I am still content to stick with after owning for almost 2 years. The tech keeps improving, but at a slower rate (in the areas I care most about anyway). This kit has been my best travel kit I have ever had. Small size, light weight, good performance all around. I must be pretty easy to please though because if my A700 wasn't defective I would probably still be fairly happy using it. It would be very hard though to go back to the size/weight of the A700 and lenses or equivalent for travel now though. Hard to imagine I would ever even consider it again. :lol:

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Re: Sony 7r

Unread postby David Kilpatrick » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:03 pm

I think you can assume that NEX changed to Alpha because of Samsung's use of NX as a generic name the same way Sony actually has had Alpha as a generic name. Sony can not have enjoyed the way NX and NEX appeared at the same time.

Alpha seems to be a unique brand and RX belongs entirelty to the Cyber-shot division. When the A7 was first handed out to testers, it was handed out by the Cyber-shot marketing people and was not called an A7 (it didn't have a name). I think it's quite possible that the Alpha division got to keep the A7/A7R despite the big chunks of design from Cyber-shot RX1, in return for the end of the NEX name, which was probably competing with Cyber-shot. Like Barry suggests, it's whatever the customer goes into a shop and asks for.

David


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