SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

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classiccameras
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby classiccameras » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:57 pm

Barry for what its worth I get better Jpegs from my A37 than I do from the A57, I don't know why, but I read somewhere it had a modified engine to the A57. Its the same as the NEX-5N engine.
The best Jpegs ever were IMHO from the older 4/3 Olympus.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:43 am

No idea on the jpegs, but I'm not convinced to date that Sony understands what people want. Choice..if you want details and some "noise/grain" let folks have it with minor NR being done. Quite simple, it's not a big ask never was.

As for the "gap" obviously the A77 and A65 will be end of line no more units produced. If SAR are correct Sony will only have a 3 model line up this year which is a disaster for A mount. The devil is in the details, the A58 is really an A38 in a slightly bigger body. It's too cut down for many folks (myself included) on the other hand I'm being conservative with the A78 it could be £1100-£1200 possibly the A77 was around there first release (though we hope the falling FF prices will ensure this doesn't happen)

You really need something in between those models.
I was really disappointed when the A58 came out it's a downgraded A57 and unimpressive in the hand. Now a really decent 6 series model could do Sony the world of good, folks who don't want to pony up £1000 odd but want more than the entry range.

It's probably the most important model in the A Mount line up sales wise. I don't really care much myself as I'm not keen to have to buy an adaptor for my flashes with the new bodies, so I'll probably stick to i-iso bodies for a while now (another Sony blunder not bundling the adaptor with ALL bodies), I will add another more up to date body this year (to retire the 5d's from active service) Sony just don't have anything to offer here other than hitting ebay or buying older bodies at a discount.

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:14 am

bakubo wrote:
Actually, I think one could probably leave Sony completely out of this and not pay them anything. Do people who make lenses, adapters, etc. that use the A-mount have to pay Sony to do that? Does Sigma pay Sony? Do the makers of adapters pay Sony? I don't know the answer. If you don't use the Sony name and don't steal their tech then I suspect you could make cameras and lenses that use the A-mount. Aren't there some Chinese and Russian cameras that use Nikon, Leica, etc. mounts? Ignore Sony, don't buy anything from them. Hell, why would anyone in their right mind who wants to make the cameras Sony should be making for the prices Sony should be selling them for want anything from Sony? Anything from Sony would just contaminate the results. :lol:


An excellent point Henry, I guess anyone with a CNC mill can make the mount in any quantity required and then just wing the rest, there is a plastic molding plant here that could do the body parts for example so that wouldn’t be a problem, then you could use parts out of surplus P&S cameras, they can be bought in bulk cheap. The system compatibility of the camera might be a little iffy to start with, but hey if some guy can sell a car bomb detector to all and sundry (even various military forces) when it was nothing more than a completely useless kid’s toy (he made millions before they woke up and nabbed him) then anything is possible. :roll:
What about the fake shops? a fake A-mount camera of your choice that takes fake photos from a fake shop maybe at half the price, that’s an untouched resource as far as we know, who knows the fake one might turn out to be better than the real one. :lol:
Greg

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby Dusty » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:00 pm

It just so happens that one of SARs random old post quotes DK's PCA article from about 2 years ago:
"Sony does listen, but it listens harder to new potential buyers than to existing owners. It listens to the untapped market, to the people who buy someone else’s camera instead of Sony. After all, it’s already got the existing owners. It only needs to listen to them as far as the next camera upgrade goes for the proportion who will be likely to change frequently."

(Article here:) http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/05/20/what-the-buyer-wants-nex-f3-alpha-37-and-more/

I think that says it all. That's also why I haven't invested any more in the A mount. They don't care about us, and take us for granted. Then they wonder why they can't move out of a far behind 3rd spot.

Dusty
A couple of a350's, an a700 and now an a580, plus even more lenses.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:19 pm

Dusty the only thing that strikes me is this isn't a smartphone war, it's a system. You might change your phone for another maker no tears or problems, but when you are invested in a system camera you are in some ways tied to that (I say in some ways as third party makers can give you alternatives lenses/flashes wise)

So if Sony are listening more to new users, they are missing a big point about why people buy a system camera, and how to make sure they stay in the system longer term. If Sony's take is to gear more towards newer users, they risk losing the previous ones (I'm pretty sure the long A700 update delay lost Sony quite a few intermediate/advanced users)

I don't have a big investment in A Mount, it's fairly comprehensive in terms of what I have bodies lenses and flash wise, probably only a few bits to complete it (for my needs) most of my lenses are Minolta or Tamron, the 2 Sony lenses I have I didn't actually pay for :mrgreen:
At this time I certainly would not be willing to invest in any pricey lenses or exotic stuff

And if things ever did go completely pear shaped I could raise enough capital to move to another maker and acquire a half decent set up.
Thing is I'm sentimental, and I've grown fond of that Minolta vintage glass, and the rendering. I have to say I'm not getting that feel from the Nikon/Pentax experiment I tried, and I'm still only luke warm with Canon too.

I honestly think Sony have bags of potential, they just don't know it or how to consistently show it. I never really felt the Alpha team was as tuned in as they should have been, and this constant changing directions from Sony only serves to alienate the few users they have.


Again SAR are repeating this is the only crop A Mount camera for 2014:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-a77- ... -200-euro/

Price is about in line with what you would expect.
I'd imagine the A58 will continue for this year
And we've no idea what they will do with the A65

It's not really hitting the "appeal to new users" mark, because new users tend to buy entry to mid level bodies first.
It would be a real shame to only have the A58 around at that price point, it's an ok super budget camera but nothing special in any way at all

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby classiccameras » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:30 pm

I have to agree with Barry on some points, Having used Minolta Manual focus SLR's with MC/MD lenses for years I was always impressed with their quality.
It was the availability on the second hand market of Minolta/KM Alpha mount lenses that first attracted me to the Sony Alpha cameras.
I certainly have not invested huge amounts in the Sony system having just 2 bodies, an A37 and A57 and my 2 Minolta lenses, 24-85 and 17-35 which cost me less than £150 each.
Ok, I got the Sony 18-135, but that was a very good deal at the time.

Out of all the cameras where legacy auto lenses can be used Sony lead the field in my book.
So if I had to jump ship its a big enough loss but not a huge loss. So far, I'm happy with what I have and what it produces. Quite honestly, I'm not sure where I would jump to, Canon may be but its not a sure thing. The later Pentaxes only because they have IBIS and improved metering and focussing but their lenses are too expensive for a mediocre performance, Tamron and Sigma would have to supply my Pentax glass. I'm trying to stay positive about Sony, but they are slowly but surely eroding that with their marketing or lack of it.

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby hrstrat57-RI » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:28 am

I certainly may have missed it but what is Sony's logic for changing the flash mount on their recent offerings?

I have a Minolta 56 and a Sony 42 and find it quite troubling.....

Does the A57 have the same mount as my flashguns?

Considering an A65 or A77 but the flashgun issue is a real deal breaker for me....
Let's go while we're young//NEX 6,A700x2 w/vg,A100//Maxxum 100 2.8m,200 2.8,50 1.7,28 2.8,28-85,35-105,24-105D,100-200,70-210/4//Sony 35 1.8, 18-55//Sigma 400 5.6//M42: Asanuma 135 2.8,Pentax Takumar 55 2,135 3.5

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby Rhtubbs » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:38 am

hrstrat57-RI wrote:I certainly may have missed it but what is Sony's logic for changing the flash mount on their recent offerings?

I have a Minolta 56 and a Sony 42 and find it quite troubling.....

Does the A57 have the same mount as my flashguns?

Considering an A65 or A77 but the flashgun issue is a real deal breaker for me....


I believe the current A57, A65 and A77 will fit your flashguns.
The A99 was the first Sony with the newest mount. I am not sure of the A58.

Sony has adapters to make the old flashes work with the new shoe and vice versa. It is a little expensive. Works ok.

Hope this helps.
Ron

a200, a550, A7r, Sony, Sigma, Tamron, Minolta lenses

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby hrstrat57-RI » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:47 am

Rhtubbs wrote:
hrstrat57-RI wrote:I certainly may have missed it but what is Sony's logic for changing the flash mount on their recent offerings?

I have a Minolta 56 and a Sony 42 and find it quite troubling.....

Does the A57 have the same mount as my flashguns?

Considering an A65 or A77 but the flashgun issue is a real deal breaker for me....


I believe the current A57, A65 and A77 will fit your flashguns.
The A99 was the first Sony with the newest mount. I am not sure of the A58.

Sony has adapters to make the old flashes work with the new shoe and vice versa. It is a little expensive. Works ok.

Hope this helps.


Helps huge and might just eliminate my deal breaker. I need video for a couple of grandkids that have happened along. Held out against it as long as I could.

Deals on the A65 are fantastic at the moment tho I wish I could come across a NIB A57 at a the same level of savings. Prefer the 16 mp to the 24....I handled the A58 and was completely unimpressed.

Thanks again!
Let's go while we're young//NEX 6,A700x2 w/vg,A100//Maxxum 100 2.8m,200 2.8,50 1.7,28 2.8,28-85,35-105,24-105D,100-200,70-210/4//Sony 35 1.8, 18-55//Sigma 400 5.6//M42: Asanuma 135 2.8,Pentax Takumar 55 2,135 3.5

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby Birma » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:14 pm

If I were a betting man then I would say that Sony changed the flash mount as the fact that they, and Minolta before them, had a different flash shoe to everyone else was tripped out as a 'negative' by the vast majority of review sites ever since the A100 was released. I'm not sure it has won them many friends though.

I suspect they also wanted to modify the flash shoe to allow all sorts of other proprietary attachments and they thought they'd join the herd at the same time. In a few years I doubt many people will remember the change.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby alphaomega » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:36 pm

I suspect they also wanted to modify the flash shoe to allow all sorts of other proprietary attachments and they thought they'd join the herd at the same time. In a few years I doubt many people will remember the change.

Yes Birma, that was probably one of the reasons. I bought the new Sony Microphone ECM-XYST1M that fits on to the new universal shoe on top of my NEX-6. Much better than the old one I used on my A580.

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:29 am

It looks like Sony are trying to finally unload the models that have the i-shoe, they even have a special running on the A77 here in OZ, (who would’ve thought?) the replacement model will obviously have the MIStake shoe when/if it appears at some point. I wonder lately when a model will appear without the screw drive motor, then it’ll get a little harder for the layperson to tell the Alpha A-thingy from the Alpha E-whatever. Surely it’s only a matter of time before some Alpha E gets the IBIS treatment, mad if they don’t.
Actually maybe they won’t remove the screw drive motor because the most likely candidate for removal is an entry model, they wouldn’t be inclined to remove it from the upmarket model, that’s for keeping up appearances with backward compatibility.
But strangely enough it’s the entry model that would be most likely to need the backward compatibility because of the attraction and access to cheaper old used lenses for the budget section, and just about all of those would be screw drive, people who get the expensive upmarket model would be more likely to buy new SSM type lenses.
So when all said and done they would likely keep the screw drive in all bodies, if there IS another entry Alpha A model that is.
I’m thinking with the saturation of camera models of all kinds everywhere now maybe the budget section will be occupied by the Alpha E’s but we’ll see. The budget E is always going to have the add-on cost of the adaptor if it wants to impersonate a budget A and will have no IBIS either (at the moment) so that particular ploy might not fly very well, but you just never know these days, what people buy and why they buy them is almost impossible to predict.
Maybe if Sony includes a free adaptor and puts IBIS in the E-body to compete better with Olympus and the A-bodies then they could finally kill the A-mount entry and mid-range models off for good.
Btw here is the statement by Sony on the inception of the Alpha brand and the marketing purpose of that brand, I don’t see any reference to any other mount apart from the A-mount in that announcement.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200604/06-033E/
Exactly how the Alpha brand evolved to include the E-mount is a bit of a mind warp, you can’t fit an E-mount lens onto an A-mount camera but that doesn’t stop people or Sony claiming the E-mount as an Alpha.
Instead of Sony ditching the NEX name they should have kept that and removed the Alpha off it, realistically they could put the logo on the A-mount adaptor for the NEX but not the camera.
Greg

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:40 am

Greg the words Sony and "free adaptor" don't mix :lol:

I said some time ago that the only way for Sony to ease the pain for current A mount users and the rather odd choice to change shoe (so late in the day) was to include a flash adaptor in the box of every body they sell for a few years. That's just a bit of moulded plastic that goes on the hot shoe, it's quite unlikely Sony would give away an E to A mount one for nothing.

No ideas what going on but personally as most of my lenses are screw drive I don't find the bulky expensive adaptor a solution even if they had IBIS in E Mount it's far from ideal. If Fuji got their act together I might take a look there, but they have yet to flesh out the system properly, and their basic TTL Flash is too crude for my liking.

I wouldn't be interested in micro 4/3, and currently E mount isn't doing it for me either

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:10 am

Yeah Barry agreed, :lol: I was sort of thinking along the lines of an introductory offer for a model when they make a NEX like the E-M1, (sooner or later). Good niches that pay off for a camera company won’t last in isolation for long these days before another company decides to get some of that action for themselves, and Sony are already halfway there with the NEX.

The Fuji system does do some good photos, maybe the colours look a bit oversaturated to my sense of photographic reality but that’s not my main objection, it’s the lens design; the focus by wire and also some lenses don’t have anywhere to grip properly to take the lens off the camera, at least I’m pretty sure it was the Fuji lenses, my memory isn’t that wonderful maybe I should have paid more attention.
Once they mention focus by wire its game over for me, I tend to wander off.
Greg

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Re: SAR: A77 update coming, no A65 update

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:30 am

Problem is Greg they're all focus by wire pretty much. Olympus started it with the original 4/3 lenses. Even Canon are now doing STF on some lenses (and I've tried a few and yes the MF is inferior to mechanical focus) It's funny how makers go back to power focus and power zoom when we ditched it years ago as being pretty pointless

Fuji as ever have potential, but the execution isn't quite there at least not yet. If Fuji come up with a 1" sensor X30 or something I'd take a look at that (they at least got the viewfinder part of it) As for X mount it's too early to tempt me I pay attention to it but can't help but think they are not quite where I want them to be.
If Sony are to tempt A mount users with E Mount bodies they'll have to come up with a solution for AF that doesn't involve the SLT mirror on their adaptor. Phase detect straight off the sensor, IBIS, a proper flash system and a more compact adaptor that can AF all A mount lenses including screw drive ones.

I don't really want to have to dump my entire inventory of A Mount lenses, but Sony are going to have to provide products that actually support A Mount users.
They've not exactly outdone themselves looking after current customers (esp firmware which is one opportunity to deal with issues and look after customers)

I suppose you could sustain A mount for 5-10 years even if they pulled the plug with s/h bodies, but I think they've made people nervous and the overdue A77 update likely prompted some users to leave. Sony are really not very good at being consistent, they just don't get it.


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