One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

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peterottaway
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One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by peterottaway »

Well at least he has been blackballed and banned as not being in Amazons perceived commercial interests.harold1968 has been banned for translating amazonspeak into plain English on the so called review of the Sony A7.

You can now find him on Dyxum as colonel.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Do you mean this post by him that I found eventually http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3611860 where he’s being sarcastic?
He posts anonymously under a pseudonym (like most do) not his actual name so what’s the problem with him getting disappeared, to me that’s about as important as his opinion was, just a teeny bit above zero.
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Ps I don’t think it warrants the attention of a separate new thread in the Sony Alpha 100-900 forum, the camera review he is complaining about isn’t even of an A-mount camera, maybe it warrants a post in the off topic forum at best.
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Birma
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by Birma »

If I was a suspicious sort of person I could have thought that DPR would generate more traffic by being a teeny bit controversial in their A7 review. But then it could just be the whole atmosphere of the site :) . The news section is handy though.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
peterottaway
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by peterottaway »

I used to be one of those who always considered things to be a stuff up rather than a conspiracy. However given DPRs past bad conduct together with any number of complaints against Amazon, Google and Samsung to name the most notorious offenders, you have too wonder.

Actually I was expecting something like this, and when they put out that rubbish article on the use of older third party lenses I was left in no doubt. They have a consistent editorial line which they fancy dress behind an open considered review style.

As to where to put the article, given their hostile attitude will apply to anything A mount ( A580 review anyone ? ) or E mount. Plus if they did video reviews the Sony cameras would cop the same treatment. But I could be totally wrong and they are simply a bunch of low life hit whores. Or both. Or somewhere in between all of the above.

And to any DPR staff who refuse to indulge in this kind of behaviour,you have my deepest sympathy. After all it it hard to get a decent job these days, so you just can't walkaway.

After all what is wrong with naming the Nikon D600 the second best camera in existence ?

N.B. I consider there to a very big difference between Barry or Greg or anyone else saying they don't like what Sony is doing or that to them a certain model is a useless waste of space. That's their genuinely held beliefs openly stated by them.
classiccameras
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by classiccameras »

DPR have got a bit of a reputation of making mountains out of Mole Hills on occasions, They have been known to over emphasize a minor negative on a revew camera and then make a bit deal out of it to mark it down, usually not on one of their 'pet' brands. Having said that, the DPR reviews are very in depth and are worth reading, just be aware of their occasional bias.

Other review sites can have downers or uppers on brands of cameras. For example, Pentax can't do no wrong in Amateur Photographer's eyes, other sites differ. Canikon being the favoured brand by most reviewers.

Sony SLT is often in the firing line from quite a few reviewers because of the SLT system, yet if you read some of the more balanced reviews such as from Imaging Resource, the SLT gets a big thumbs up for many operational reasons including image quality. Read Steve Huff's quick review of the A-57 its worth a look.

Sony put a lot of faith into SLT and were apparently very pleased with the performance in comparison to the opposition. I have never seen SLT as a problem for me and in reality it boils down to those who like or don't like EVF, apart from that IMHO, they take just as good a picture as the Canikon equivalents and in certain circumstances better. If there is a future in A mount at my level, entry/mid range then I will stay loyal.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I was of the other view, in that DPR were being a "soft touch" with camera reviews and starting to turn into whatdigitalcamera, and pop photo. Even imaging resource have turned into pushover for reviews with nonsense ramblings infecting their good layout format. I'd almost given up reading on-line camera reviews because they read more like advertisements than actual reviews.

So to me it was a breath of fresh air that this time DPR actually landed a few punches
It's fair to say sometimes problems/issues are overblown and concentrated on too much, but I think DPR's main problem is lack of consistency.

If you moan about a lack of built in flash on the A7, you have to apply the same logic to competitor models like the EM-1. I know reviewers do vary and have their own take, but still it's a valid point. And no it's not because it's a "Sony" and I want them to get bad reviews, I think readers deserve a more critical take and having run into issues and problems on some makers and bodies, I know only too well the value of a well done review that spots problems..v one that just doesn't.
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by classiccameras »

It looks like DPR are still not impressed with the Sony Alpha 7 Jpegs, all that money and its still below par to most of the opposition. Sony just cannot let go of their over zealous noise reduction, which degrades Jpeg IQ, especially at higher ISO settings. Just look at the Nikon DF Jpegs in the conclusion comparison chart which has almost half the number of pixels. I don't mind a tad more noise if it improves picture definition. For goodness sake, Olympus used to recommend turning the noise filter off on their Exxx 4/3 cameras for higher and better detailed Jpegs.
peterottaway
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by peterottaway »

Well I have the A7r and not the A7, however they have the same B. processor and I am assuming the same software. So the JPEG results should be similar allowing for the different sensors. I use RAW on my camera so I am not familiar with its JPEG production. Any JPEG engine starts with at least one glaring weakness - it is making a whole boatload of assumptions about how I want my photo's to end up.

Yes I can tell the camera whether to use Adobe RGB or sRGB, to use DRO or not and what exact JPEG quality. Noise reduction anyone ? But whether what comes off your card and onto your computer is very subjective and the amount of alteration and correction to the image will vary enormously. There can be different assumptions made about whether the photographer will simply accept the photo straight from the camera ( P & S ) as opposed to say a pro sports shooter. The pro may initially just want good enough for paper reproduction or web site but will want to cleanup any shots that are considered to be keepers.

Are you using Pixelmator or Photoshop ? Lightroom or DxO or RawTherapee etc,etc. What you want out of the camera depends on where you are going. Even if you are using JPEG and not RAW.

Plus of course DPR are notorious for the fraud they perpetuated against Sony JPEG by using JPEG Fine for all comparisons between Canon. Nikon and Sony even though the nearest functional equivalent to Canikon Fine was Sony Extra Fine. Sony having split its JPEG functions more ways than Canon and Nikon has. This meant that DPR was deliberately comparing a cruder version of Sony JPEG. And yes Sony's JPEG engineat the time was poorer than Canons and Nikons, but this made it seem even worse.

Lastly it seems that DPR is the only reviewer to have this problem with the Sony JPEG engine. Most that have done any comparisons have sair that it compares well with the Nikon D800.

Well thats me. I have to go and prepare the vegetables for the Sunday roast.
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by classiccameras »

Sunday roast, now your talking, we are going down the local carvery for our roast today.

If its of any use, I am very pleased with the Jpegs from my A-37 and even then I re do some of the shadow and high lights and colour temp to optimise the picture. I often use the hystogram to adjust some aspects of the picture, so Jpegs for me are not just point and shoot, but are also PP to my taste.
With some PP Sony Jpegs can be excellent and certainly better than some other cameras.
A good example of Jpegs at their best is the Hi Def picture of Thorsbey Hall in the review of the A-37 in EPZ. Look at the 100% crop detail in the brickwork and other parts of the house not to mention edge definition and all with the standard 18-55 SAM kit lens. Now see if you can find a better picture of this house from other camera reviews with equal detail, not many I would say.
I still wish they would give us a wider option on user controlled noise adjustment, its almost as if Sony don't trust us.
peterottaway
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by peterottaway »

It's more than a little farcical for me to be commenting on JPEG's as I only use them on my A77 for sports, local swap meets and the like. It is just so easy for the alleged design decisions in RAW to so easily cause upraw :mrgreen: .When you get to higher performance cameras and all the different interests to be appeased the companies are on a hiding to nothing. We all know just about what we want and definitely know when we are not getting it.

I would much prefer to have a computer program where I could decide exactly what I want the camera to do and then be able to download my choices to the camera. The only problem is this would cause the companies totally freakout as it would involve an EPROM and so all sorts of risks of virus and hacking activities. These along with the general stupidity of some people will lead to wide scale bricking on cameras and of course it will never be the camera owners fault ! It's just that I am getting sick and tired with attempting to set up my menu selections with press that and then move the front control wheel to the left until you see a star symbol type of actions.

But at the same time there is no need for Canonista's who haven't made the effort to learn, to complain its different from my Canon. I am sure if I attempted to pick up a high end Canon and use it on anything apart from P, I would end up stuffing things up too. I would also have problems with being deprived of an acceptable EVF with focus peaking and genuine live view - not trying to be provocative to the OVF people.
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Birma
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by Birma »

I simply can't imagine making the choice on a camera body purchase based on its jpeg engine. For a start there are normally a lots of ways to tweak to the jpeg settings, and then I want to get every ounce from the camera image and so for anything other than snaps I don't really want jpegs anyway. I think the camera's body colour would have more influence :) .

The wide range of reviewers' takes on the A7/A7R jpegs suggests to me that it is a pretty personal thing at the end of the day.
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the_hefay
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by the_hefay »

Birma wrote:I think the camera's body colour would have more influence :)
:lol:
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classiccameras
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by classiccameras »

Although I think Jpeg qualities are important to me, I don't use them exclusively. I occasionally use RAW when I have the time and I think the picture and subject matter would benefit more from that PP. Its a bit pointless arguing the merrits of both as they both have a part to play in todays photography and at the end of the day its a personal choice. I certainly would not critisise some one who only uses RAW, that's their choice.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I see folks on DPR are going nuts over the review. Look most of us shoot raw, but there are times where jpegs can be useful. I've basically avoided jpegs in most cases, even if I wanted a jpeg and didn't want a raw file I'd get far better results converting it, or as I've recently done started converting ARW files to compressed DNG with a much smaller file size as an alternative.

There are times jpegs are just fine, if you're taking some casual shots of a birthday party or something like that. I used jpegs quite a bit on the Pentax and Nikon bodies without any problems. If you set things up how you want you're fine for some shots. Raw seems overkill for some types of shooting (and size wise takes up a lot of space) Some of the "Sony features" are useless without jpeg such as DRO which does work well, but with the weak jpeg quality it's almost never used by me.

It can't be that hard to do Sony need to sort their jpegs out across their range of models, they've had years to do this so there are no excuses really.
We can argue many won't use them, but it should get a mention in a review. If I look over some of my Pentax/Nikon jpegs I was getting good results even at ISO 3200, on my current Sony the jpegs are a joke almost at that high ISO level, something that you'd expect off a cheap p&s not a larger sensor camera.
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Birma
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Re: One More Name Added to the DPR Pantheon of the Damned

Unread post by Birma »

I didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't use jpegs so sorry if I gave that impression. I was just surprised that a pretty serious camera was judged on this criteria when on one hand it would appear to be pretty subjective (i.e. some people say they are great), and on the other hand jpegs are something you can tweak in the camera settings. I'm just surprised that jpeg quality would be a decider for someone in buying this sort of camera, but hey - it takes all sorts :) .
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
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