What to do next?

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Greg Beetham
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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:06 pm

mixxer wrote:The simple fact is that the 'traditional' DSLR market is overwhelmingly dominated by Canon and Nikon. To try and take these two on in a head to head would be commercial suicide. Because of their dominance Canon and Nikon have become complacent and are avoiding any real innovation (echos of the British motorcycle industry in the 1960's). They are starting to stagnate and are living on past glories.
Sony have proven that technology can improve on the offerings from the 'Big Two' the only thing holding them back is the petty conservatism in the market. Anyone who can seriously suggest that the EVF of an a37/57/58/65/77 is inferior to the pokey OVF of an equivalent APS-C DSLR is fooling nobody but themselves. Current Sony's are a match for any equivalent Canon/Nikon with regard to stills use and noticably superior in video usage. I know the chorus will cry out "I don't want and never will want video" but why should everyone else be denied a useful and interesting feature because of a blinkered few?
I suggest those who cannot cope with Sony's road map should go to Canon or Nikon and find within 5 years that those companies have either followed Sony's lead or gone into serious decline.


Who said you couldn’t have EVF’s, you can have battery wasting EVF’s till the cows come home for all I care, all I’m asking for is that Sony keeps a decent OVF DSLR in the range, one without video and without a sensor infested with AF and exposure diodes, yes the demosaicing algorithms are probably ‘artistic license’ to a certain extent on any version of sensor but with an infestation of AF and exposure diodes it is only going to get worse because those diodes have to be replaced by yet another algorithm using adjacent real pixels as a substitute.
It take three sensels (R+G+B) to make one pixel so if you replace entire pixels with AF and exposure diodes how far away from real reproduction are you getting?
As far as OVF’s go the one in my A700 isn’t bad, it’s quite good actually when compared to the one in my X-700, a narrower field of view yes, but that is because of the telephoto effect due to the 1.5x APS-C sized sensor and mirror, if you adjust the FOV to a similar value by using an appropriate lens on each to adjust to the same 1x perspective value the A700 has a good VF with a similar FOV, maybe not quite as bright, but definitely not looking through a tunnel. Even the A100 and KM5D with pentamirrors in the pentaprism housing aren’t too bad, I can use them easily, I would think it’s the later OVF’s that were worse when LV and video started to creep into the woodwork.
If you think OVF’s are dead check out the Df sales, Nikon can’t keep up with the demand, if you order one now you will wait 6 months before you get it, (according to a Nikon chief) and not only does it have an OVF it’s a FF camera that can’t do video. Nikon’s secret? They have and maintain a system that works properly, especially the flash system.
Greg

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bakubo
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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby bakubo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:53 pm

That is interesting news that Alamy now accepts phone photos. Over the last few years David and others who submit to Alamy have written about their very strict requirements, all they have to do to prepare a photo just right to maybe get it accepted, the many cameras that they won't even accept submissions for, lots of rejections, etc. Now they accept phone photos.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby mixxer » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:11 pm

"If you think OVF’s are dead check out the Df sales, Nikon can’t keep up with the demand, if you order one now you will wait 6 months before you get it, (according to a Nikon chief) and not only does it have an OVF it’s a FF camera that can’t do video. Nikon’s secret? They have and maintain a system that works properly, especially the flash system."

The Df is just a marketing exercise. An 'Olde Worlde' curiosity pandering to the retrogressive mindset infesting the enthusiast photographer market. Like I posted earlier, Nikon (and Canon) appear incapable of any real innovation and would rather look back rather than forward. Do you seriously believe that a £2750 camera which can't even take video is something Sony should be making? You show me a photograph taken with a Nikon Df which couldn't have been taken to an equal standard with a Sony a37 costing 1/9 of the price.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby bakubo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:16 pm

mixxer wrote:The Df is just a marketing exercise. An 'Olde Worlde' curiosity pandering to the retrogressive mindset infesting the enthusiast photographer market. Like I posted earlier, Nikon (and Canon) appear incapable of any real innovation and would rather look back rather than forward. Do you seriously believe that a £2750 camera which can't even take video is something Sony should be making? You show me a photograph taken with a Nikon Df which couldn't have been taken to an equal standard with a Sony a37 costing 1/9 of the price.


Darn, with that argument then one could also ask: You show me a photograph taken with a Sony A99 (A7 or A7r or whatever) which couldn't have been taken to an equal standard with a Sony a37 costing 1/9 of the price. :lol:

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby peterottaway » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:22 pm

Greg just how many Df cameras is Nikon producing each month ?

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Heidfirst » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:37 pm

Greg Beetham wrote:
mixxer wrote:If you think OVF’s are dead check out the Df sales, Nikon can’t keep up with the demand, if you order one now you will wait 6 months before you get it, (according to a Nikon chief)

In Japan maybe but in other developed markets around the world they are in stock & apparently not exactly flying off the shelves ...
If you are going to use sales of OVF cameras as an argument you would be better off using the likes of D32/3300 & Canon Rebels as your example as they will far outsell any FF.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:44 pm

mixxer wrote:
The Df is just a marketing exercise. An 'Olde Worlde' curiosity pandering to the retrogressive mindset infesting the enthusiast photographer market. Like I posted earlier, Nikon (and Canon) appear incapable of any real innovation and would rather look back rather than forward. Do you seriously believe that a £2750 camera which can't even take video is something Sony should be making? You show me a photograph taken with a Nikon Df which couldn't have been taken to an equal standard with a Sony a37 costing 1/9 of the price.


I have no way of proving either way which could take a better photo except wade through a bunch of reviews, reviews that I would struggle to remain awake in, besides the question is pretty much irrelevant to the sales of the Df, if a camera sells well it’s a winner whatever the reason is that it sells well.
If people want to buy such a camera despite it having an OVF and no video (great work Nikon) there has to be a marketing lesson in there someplace.
Greg

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:45 pm

peterottaway wrote:Greg just how many Df cameras is Nikon producing each month ?


One :lol:
Greg
Ps I have absolutely no idea…actually.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:48 pm

Heidfirst wrote:In Japan maybe but in other developed markets around the world they are in stock & apparently not exactly flying off the shelves ...
If you are going to use sales of OVF cameras as an argument you would be better off using the likes of D32/3300 & Canon Rebels as your example as they will far outsell any FF.


I think I might of struck a noive :lol:
Greg
Ps I'm only repeating what I read that a Nikon guy said, I don't remember anything about markets, maybe he was just painting a rosy picture to drum up some interest, I have no idea on that.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby peterottaway » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:13 pm

I don't have any information one way or the other about Nikon production, it's just that I tend to distrust ambiguous statements. I can see a market in those who couldn't afford a Nikon D4(either the camera or the steroids I mean) .There are also those who would have purchased a D800 but to whom the Df is something they think they will be more comfortable with.

So my assumption ( totally without facts ) is that the Df would appeal more to rusted on Nikon fans rather than new to Nikon buyers. From various sites it would appear that cameras such as the A7 and the Nex are appealing to more different groups rather than traditional Minolta or Sony buyers.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:03 pm

When I first had a look at the A7-A7r specs (without nodding off, specs tend to do that with me with any camera though) read through some first looks and preliminary reviews etc. and got an idea of the size, duration coupled with performance etc. I sort of slotted it into a niche for those who want to dabble around with lots of exotic lenses, some with obviously really good results and some not so good. But with the cameras presenting such a paradox, no IBIS, no built in flash, limited battery life, few dedicated OEM lenses, the UI a bit klutzy and not even a battery charger also with AF not really up to DSLR standard they were obviously destined for a niche of some kind I just wasn’t sure exactly what.
Someone else said that Sony is just chucking lots of stuff around to see what sticks and that’s how the A7-A7r sort of appears as well, they do seem to be popular so they might actually be a winner for Sony despite the price being a bit on the steep side for what they are.
Greg

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:21 am

I don't think the A7 - A7R have been fully developed yet and that's if Sony actually want to continue to develop and refine them. Sales will be pretty small compared to other Sony cameras, price factor being one reason. That being the case I would rather spend my money on some thing else that's a proven working system.

The Nikon DF is already receiving critisism for being too big in comparison to the old SLR's its supposed to be emulating, yet, there is a 6 Month waiting list for this camera, so that must tell us something.

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Heidfirst » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:53 am

classiccameras wrote:
The Nikon DF is already receiving critisism for being too big in comparison to the old SLR's its supposed to be emulating, yet, there is a 6 Month waiting list for this camera, so that must tell us something.

There isn't a 6 month waiting list in the US or the UK ( & I presume the rest of Europe too) at retail - look at B&H, WEX, Park Cameras etc. Want a black one - in stock, a silver one - in stock.
Thom Hogan says that it's not selling as well as the 2 year old D800 & he probably has better market feedback than we do.

Of course it's possible that there is a 6 month wait from the factory whilst still having a lot of stock already in the channel.
A bit like Nikon saying that Nikon 1 was doing well (ex-factory) whilst it was piling up at retail in countries other than Japan (until they dropped the prices to firesale level).

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby peterottaway » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:30 am

A bit like smartphones I would think.There is only one company that actually releases its quarterly sales figure which is Apple, And even Apple doesn't reveal its model breakup figures but the figures at least are for sales and inventory in the distribution system, not simply production figures.

Those reports you see about supposed sales figures may or may not have some basis in reality but no-one can be certain. As these so called research companies don't reveal any real information as to their methodology or who is paying them to produce these "reports". The so called financial reporters and analysts then dust off their Apple is doomed stories from the last quarter because a mysterious brand known as Andriod has 80% of the market ( ? on how the market is defined ) to Apples 20%.

Now interestingly when the large US telcos publish their figures then Apple is now up to about 46% of the real smartphone business in the US. In most of the major OECD countries Apple is rated as being either first or second in sales by company. And the estimate is that Apple makes somewhere between 75% and 80%of the smartphone producing companies profits.

But Apple is still doomed !Blackberry is little more than a shelf company, Nokia had to be taken over by Microsoft, HTC has suffered massive loses, Sony Ericson is no more and a number of Japanese companies may still be producing commodity mobile phones but have abandoned smartphone production. But Apple is doomed !

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Re: What to do next?

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:32 pm

I sort of looked at the 6 month claim with a bit of suspicion because Nikon went in right off the bat with a pretty hefty price for a retro style camera, I thought it would sell really well if it had an attractive price. There is the attraction of compatibility with all the older lenses so that makes up for a lot, but still the price bracket it’s in might make it out of reach for a large section that otherwise would really like one.
Greg


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