SLT technology now

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Mark K
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SLT technology now

Unread post by Mark K »

Four years ago, when I got my first SLT camera A77, I strongly believed it will be the future. It did not take long before I started to understand the price we paid for SLT....image quality. I don't understand why Sony has to kill its conventional mirror cameras first...and I guess its sales number does tell the truth. Is there a sign that Sony will come back to the traditional DSLR market? :| :| :| :| :|
mvanrheenen

Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by mvanrheenen »

No, that will not happen anymore.
classiccameras
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by classiccameras »

Sony's future is undoubtedly going to be mirrorless. Having said that, I think too much is made of the below par image quality of SLT than is justified, its still better than some DSLR's I could name.
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by alphaomega »

Mark K statement
Four years ago, when I got my first SLT camera A77, I strongly believed it will be the future. It did not take long before I started to understand the price we paid for SLT....image quality.
Can't comment on the validity of this statement, and in fact I was against SLT based on other photographers opinions. Kept my A550 and A580. Now sold my A550 and acquired an SLT A58 for video only. Did also take some Jpegs with the A58 and Tamron's 18-270 motorized zoom I intend to use for video. I must say that I was impressed by the (limited) test I performed with a lens that cannot be compared with a top quality prime one would use for a proper test. Could be that the 20Mp sensor used in the A58 is much superior to the 24Mp in A77, but the images were still taken with a SLT camera. Maybe the new A77II rumoured
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-a77i ... amera-yet/
might satisfy Mark K. Not so long to wait now according to SAR. Based on my experience with Sony cameras (R1, A700, A350, A550, A580, A58, Nex 5, 5N and 6 as well as this little gem called RX100) I think that there is a lot of unwarranted criticism of Sony and their cameras. They are not perfect, but certainly usable. Final note; I like the A58 for video over my NEX-6 as it has the inbuilt steady shot and for an A mount, the ability to use the EVF for video is an advantage in sunny weather. Produces excellent MP4 stuff.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Nothing is impossible, but it's not looking likely.
Probably more chance of Greg being elected as Prime Minister of Australia :mrgreen:

But we can hope :lol:

Being a bit more serious, it can't be denied there is a hit to image quality. I've not seen any sharpness issues (nor did I expect to) with the SLT mirror, but it does rob light. You could argue it's not significant, but a hit is a hit. Comparing the D7k and A57 (same or very similar sensors) the A57 is close, but a bit rougher at high ISO, a bit not much (somewhat larger grain at high ISO)

From a marketing perspective any kind of loss isn't going to help selling a product. I'm of the view that Sony's move to SLT only models was a mistake, limited choice for users, and probably didn't improve their sales v other makers (thus a complete waste of time). I did my bit and conveyed those thoughts to Sony directly (when I was having service issues) in depth, and with references to the need for optical VF models, as well as proper timely firmware improvements, and listening to users needs (ie flash etc)

My view of Sony is, the same as it always was. They are not the kind of company that listens to or takes onboard customers needs/desires. I sadly don't see this changing at any point. A mount is a frustrating experience in some ways, but I've learnt to just worry more about taking the shots. The A57 is a good camera, with compromises and the EVF is fine..but flawed for some lighting scenarios. I would be very interested in a "6" series DSLR with a good pentaprism OVF and dual dials, good handling, option for a grip. Something 60d/D7100 level

What I want or what others want doesn't even seem to appear on the Sony radar, they are almost completely oblivious to what's going on with users and consumers on the ground. I find that the most worrying aspect for any company. Right now I'm more concerned there will be an A Mount at all.
Mark K
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by Mark K »

Since the appearance of A900 I have invested heavily on A mount glass...and A99 did push me away to Canon and Nikon because of the seemingly less competent AF system (of A99 comparing to D800 and 5D3) and somewhat compromised image quality as comparing IQ of A99 with D600 or even A7.
Sony has never learnt this....if SLT turns out to be poisonous both to the users and to Sony itself, why not simply proceed to a less harmful solution.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Geez I hope Sony making a DSLR it isn’t as remote as that Barry. (me becoming a politician, let alone PM) :lol:
My concern with DSLT’s is the impact it has had on the flash system as well as the image manipulation that is conducted now.

I would like to see Sony pay some attention to the flash system, that’s one area where they aren’t competitive with Canon or Nikon. If they had a flash system that was beyond criticism I could to a great extent overlook the slight noise increase caused by the translucent mirror (which wouldn’t bother me all that much anyway) or the algorithm (I suspect) that looks for edge halos and fixes them at the expense of photographic accuracy, or the increased battery consumption caused by the EVF and the always on main sensor, (I still use my KM5D and SLT/MILC people would not believe the duration of the battery in that camera, it just lasts and lasts, you don’t think if it will last through the day, you think if it will last through the second week…depending on usage).

And I could probably put up with the on sensor AF and exposure diodes using up pixel space that should be devoted to picture taking but would like a choice of camera that has a clean sensor that just takes the photo, i.e. more realism and less make.believe.

Sony does in camera embellishments for most E and A lenses now so you wouldn’t know if the lenses were actually delivering what they appear to deliver, there could be a corner shading issue here (including soft) or a barrel distortion there but those are automatically corrected to a degree so you don’t realize, (does that mean when you buy a new lens now you actually get a lens that is as good as it could/should be).

Yes Sony have done a good job with AF in LV and Video for sure and that’s great for those who want it, but what about a still camera? If Sony devoted the same amount of R&D to making a pure still camera now how good would it be? Maybe if they did it would outclass the current still cameras that include video (at doing just still images), which would you choose then? The still camera or the still & video camera?

That could be one reason why we don’t see any pure still image cameras anymore, if they did make one they would probably ensure it didn’t outclass the still & video ones, in any case would they be able to even make a straight sensor now anyway?
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Dusty
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by Dusty »

Mark K wrote:Four years ago, when I got my first SLT camera A77, I strongly believed it will be the future. It did not take long before I started to understand the price we paid for SLT....image quality. I don't understand why Sony has to kill its conventional mirror cameras first...and I guess its sales number does tell the truth. Is there a sign that Sony will come back to the traditional DSLR market? :| :| :| :| :|
As bad as killing SLRs, they crippled the last one they made. The 580 came out at the same time as the 55, yet they left out GPS. At the time, I had the money to buy one, and wanted one, but w/o GPS I thought I'd wait for the next model with it included. Little did I know there would be no more.

So, my investment in Sony systems ceased. I bought some used stuff, but I put no more money in Sony's pockets, and won't unless they produce another SLR in A mount. I don't believe I'm the only one, either. After I've gotten to the point where I can no longer limp along on used equipment, I'll switch to Nikon, and leave a legacy that goes back to my XGM of 1982.

Dusty
An a700, an a550 and couple of a580s, plus even more lenses (Zeiss included!).
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bfitzgerald
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I almost bought the A580 (at the time) the GPS missing wasn't a deal break (not great though) the lack of contrast AF with screw drive lenses was a turn off. And I really wanted a better viewfinder. In hindsight maybe I should have got one warts and all (that's a Sony thing! You end up living with the quirks knowing they will never get fixed)

Little did we all know that was the last OVF model. But we could clearly see ALL of Sony's marketing went into the SLT models and the A580/560 got largely ignored even by their own maker.

Greg for all the fanfare about video and AF, the SLT video isn't all that great. Quality wise it's ok (not the sharpest but ok) sound is surprisingly decent for onboard microphones (the Canikon's I've used suck for audio) But the problem for serious video shooters eat into Sony's video plan big time. ISO capped at 1600 for the A77 big turn off for some video guys into low light, the cropped video you can't work around at all (you have to use an UWA to get wide angle) you can fit an external mic but have no control at all over the levels (another big whopper) To top it all off you can only have AF with video fixed at f3.5..bit of a limitation and entirely wastes the faster AF with fast lenses.

Anyone who thinks Sony's SLT experiment was a serious attempt to grab serious video shooters is smoking some Bob Marley stuff! Poorly thought out and badly executed in every way. The video is usable, some can work around the problems, certainly not really aimed at anything other than the casual video shooter.

My thinking is Sony went SLT to save some pennies (cheaper to make, less parts and quicker production times) The big wake up call came with the A99..all the expectations of costs being saved and a really well priced FF body flew out the window fairly quickly.
classiccameras
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by classiccameras »

I'm with you Dusty, I am not investing another penny in A mount, or at least not until I know what the future holds. If A mount is finished off by Sony, I will have to take serious stock of what new direction to take. Thankfully I have not invested huge ammounts in Sony so a move will not hurt too much. At the moment Canon and Fuji are on my short list of possibles. I also like the current crop of Pentaxes but their lenses are over priced and just average performers.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Barry I think the video incursion especially Live View has been a huge backward step in developing still cameras to the full potential (Sony ones that is). The always on main sensor and EVF not only wastes battery power unnecessarily it messes up the flash because of the double shuffle shutter thus slowing the whole operation down and blocking the exposure sensors off right at the time when they are needed the most…i.e. it’s a stoopid design but all made necessary to accommodate the inclusion of klutzy video.
Really high speed flash has suffered too I’m sure, flash in the region of 1/50000sec pulse because (I suspect) it interferes with various refresh rates and the taking of two or more data sequences during the same exposure.
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by peterottaway »

Same old argument and same old suspects. Well when Sony release new A mount cameras, will you recycle the old arguments or do you think Sony will try and give you some new talking point ?

When criticizing the A77 I have a question - regardless of any perceived shortcomings is the A77 is it still a better camera than you are as a photographer ?

You may be offended by the question but given the opinions so stridently vented I think it is valid .
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Greg Beetham
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Somehow we went from SLT design in general to A77 in particular. :roll:
My appreciation of a camera is how it functions for what I want to use it for and whether it’s a help or a hindrance. The A77 is certainly good at doing some things and not so good at others, there have been many threads at dpr about flash problems with the A77, are all those issues user error? is it that those photographers just don’t know how to operate the A77 with flash? did Sony make a 7 class camera that was a better all-round camera than the previous model or did it become more specialized and more limited by that specialization?
A camera is supposed to be a recording device that accurately reproduces reality in a photo, as far as technology allows that is, I don’t need reality embellished or enhanced or contrasted or lens corrected or pixels invented by an algorithm I just want it to reproduce what is there, or have the ability to set the camera lens and flash to do that even though it might be way off standard as far as default settings go these days.
Actually that’s what is missing off cameras now, a switch with two positions [Reality]-[Art] then the user could choose which one too use and that choice is of course recorded and locked into the EXIF.
Greg
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Birma
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by Birma »

I don't think Sony will go back to OVF. But then they do have a habit of surprising us :) .

I can appreciate Barry, Dusty and Greg's frustrations if they can't get the A mount camera body they want. I think the legacy and current A mount glass is great and difficult to replicate in another mount.

In the cause of balance, I have to say that SLT has worked out great for me though. For example, I spent a lot of time yesterday evening taking pictures straight in to the setting sun and I could do this thanks to evf and lv without any risk to my eyes. Just one of the pluses. I don't want to go back to OVF.

(I really can't comment on the flash system though as I very rarely use it.)
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
alphaomega
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Re: SLT technology now

Unread post by alphaomega »

I would dare to suggest (no figures) that Sony are selling more cameras now with their venturing into SLT and mirrorless than if they had simply continued to develop A700/350/580/900 type cameras to compete with Canikon head on. They would simply not have been able to break that duopoly. I would also suggest that this applies to lenses. I would also be prepared to predict that, as things develop and cameras become even more reliable on electronics, Sony will continue to expand. look at their dominance in sensors now through diversification. Who would have dreamed of the sensor division capturing the medium format market? The few OVF only enthusiasts should consider switching to Canikon now. Sell up and switch. Sony have chosen the Google over Microsoft road and there is no way back. Canikon do not have the electronics knowledge to match companies like Sony, Samsung and Panasonic long term. The lens problem is partly being addressed by companies like Sigma. I notice that there is now a 24mm Art lens F1.4 on its way. There won't be a still only dedicated Sony DSLR with OVF again ever. Forget it and move on to Canikon.
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