A77 II has landed!

Specifically for the discussion of the A-mount DSLR range
Forum rules
No more than three images or three external links allowed in any post or reply. Please trim quotations and do not include images in quotes unless essential.
classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by classiccameras »

This seems to be the problem with the higher pixel cameras, optical performance needs to do some catching up if they are going to do high mp sensors justice. FF especially Canikon are now suffering lens drought, as the lens makers are trying to match the high mp sensor with ever more expensive glass, where does it stop?
That 'magic' 10 or 12mp is where I think lens performance/sensor were quite well matched. 3 good examples being the 12mp Nikon D90, the 12mp Canon 450D [with decent lens] and the 10mp Olympus E-510. [when was an Olympus lens not decent]. Interestingly, the Sony 18-55 SAM kit lens is pretty good optically but its build is a joke.
Canon's early entry level kit lenses were as said, awful and Nikon were not much better. Yeah, KR also forgot to say better build quality. Given the choice I would look for a Sigma 17-50 or 17-70 with OS. At the wide end I would look for a Tokina 12-24 Mk 2 or possibly a 12-28, both these lenses are as good or better than the Canon counterparts at half the price.
User avatar
bakubo
Tower of Babel
Posts: 5865
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bakubo »

IMO, one must consider a cheap kit lens such as the original 2003 Canon 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 in the proper context and have some awareness of the history. I think that there have been 8 versions of the lens since 2003 with 3 different optical formulas. Most of the versions were for things like adding IS, changing to micro-USM motor, STM motor, or a change in cosmetics. The only one I ever had was the original that I got with the 300D as part of the kit. It cost $100 additional. I think all along these lenses have been cheap. Almost nothing costs $100 with DSLRs. :lol: When I sold the 300D I sold it with the 18-55mm. No need to keep it. If you buy a new, higher megapixel body later then you can get the current updated kit lens with newer optical formula, etc. and it will probably perform better than the old, designed for 6mp kit lens.

Of course, there are a few people who keep their el-cheapo, designed for 6mp kit lens and then use it on their new 18mp body. They will probably be very disappointed. :lol:

By the way, until the 300D came out in 2003 along with the 18-55mm kit lens if you wanted a lens that was reasonably wide angle for the Canon 10D, D60, or D30 you had to buy the FF 17-40mm f4L or 16-35mm f2.8L. My recollection is that Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina did not yet have any APS-C wide angle lenses either. Then when the 300D came out there was finally an APS-C wide angle choice that wasn't very large, heavy, and expensive. I chose to get the 300D with kit lens for this reason. Before much longer though there were other choices from Canon, Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina.
classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by classiccameras »

Its interesting how things evolve and your Canon history is a good example of that, I'm sure the other brands were much the same. Trouble is with the latest very high MP cameras [and do we honestly need more than 16/20mp] affordable kit lens performance has not kept up. 16MP challenged the lens makers for price and performance and they have done a resonably good job with the current kit lenses, but 24mp and you do need to get higher end glass to get the best from the sensor otherwise you are just wasting the sensors potential.
I think Fuji are the one to watch with their sensor designs which do not require such high pixel counts for the same or better IQ.

The 3rd party lens makers have certainly filled a gap in the price/performance/spec which had been left wide open by the 3 big camera manufacturers. I'm afraid to say that with Canikon now, every thing is built down to a price.
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

The earlier Canon kit lens sucked even on 8mp bodies, it was terrible really I tried a few copies. The 17-85mm I shot it side by side with my 18-70mm and the KM lens blew the Canon apart (ok 6 v 8mp but still it was obvious)
The bad Sony 18-70mm's I got were bad even on the 5d, let alone anything higher res. A poor lens shows even on 6mp bodies.
I agree with high res sensors some lenses run out of steam as such, but some hold up well (like the Tamron 17-50mm)

My good copy 18-70mm was still decent on 10mp bodies, it's not terrible on a 16mp one (of course not up the the tamron and yes it loses it's punch at this level of res)
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Back to the A77 II there are more samples turning up..and I'm wondering if Sony's new "multi area" jpeg NR is more akin to "painting by numbers" it looks quite horrible
https://www.flickr.com/photos/104766484 ... otostream/

Lets hope raw offers a lot more
User avatar
Greg Beetham
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6117
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Townsville, Qld. Australia
Contact:

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Hmm, I wondered about the DXO score for the A77, but they’ve given the A77 II a better mark than that.
Greg
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53749212
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by alphaomega »

Back to the A77 II there are more samples turning up..and I'm wondering if Sony's new "multi area" jpeg NR is more akin to "painting by numbers" it looks quite horrible
https://www.flickr.com/photos/104766484 ... otostream/
These animal photos look "funny". I don't think you can judge a camera based on one person's flickr images. No indication on camera settings or processing.
I think Sony's Jpegs are much improved. Must wait for better samples.
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I think they look funny because of the new " multi zone " NR Sony jpeg engine, which has featured on other models like the A7.
I can't say I care for either the concept or the execution of it. Jpegs are simple..hit the chroma noise hard and avoid too much luminance NR. Why after so many years Sony can't grasp this is a complete mystery. Anyway having accepted most are going to ignore jpegs..

Someone did post a raw no NR sample of Dyxum (using IDC with no NR) and it looked pretty much identical to the A77 ie you'll have to do some work there to get rid of the colour noise, esp at ISO 3200 or up. DxO might have the right numbers, but putting it into context the improvement is small if barely visible. Some folks were hoping for a stop better, this is nowhere near that.

I think though, the 24mp sensors don't do as well as the 16mp ones in low light, even Nikon users are commenting on this.
I certainly don't think the A77 II is going to offer a significant improvement in image quality, some might look at the advanced AF system and other bits as worthwhile. Honestly don't think the new price premium is worth paying over the A77, despite some nice enhancements in other areas.

It might be something to look at 12 months + down the road at £700 odd, but I never buy new to market cameras anyway, no point they are poor value for money.
User avatar
Birma
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6585
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:10 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by Birma »

I like a bargain as much as the next guy, but the counter to the wait for it cheaper approach is that you have less time with the new features, assuming there is a new feature you want. For example ; I could have saved £s on my A99 purchase by waiting a year, but then I would have had a year's less use of it. Was the year worth the £s? That will always come down to personal choice (and it makes GAS more fun :) ).
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Depends on your budget and we are all different. I very much doubt the A99 will ever be a price that I would find appealing. So I simply won't buy it. I can't really justify such an expense full frame is nice, but not at that price level. (again this is just me)

There is nothing wrong with the A77II price it's about in line with expectations, I can't really see a huge reason to buy it though unless you are doing action/sports and need that big buffer or snazzy AF (maybe the video part for some too) IQ wise there is very little reason to look at it.
User avatar
Greg Beetham
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6117
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Townsville, Qld. Australia
Contact:

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

bfitzgerald wrote:Back to the A77 II there are more samples turning up..and I'm wondering if Sony's new "multi area" jpeg NR is more akin to "painting by numbers" it looks quite horrible
https://www.flickr.com/photos/104766484 ... otostream/

Lets hope raw offers a lot more
What bugs me about so called high ISO noise tests is there is often no light level announced alongside the ISO value in test shots, without that it’s not worth much to me.
I know the shot of the deer at ISO10000 is pretty bad, blotchy etc. but then why would you bother anyway, who needs a photo of a deer at such an obviously bad EV, the EXIF says a light level of nearly 4, I guess f5.6 is probably ok f4 would be better but why would you need a shutter speed of 1/1000sec on a stationary deer? Is it needlessly contrived?
Anyway whatever, there seems to be a lack of standard luminance values where these high ISO image tests or samples are concerned and that value can have a very large effect on the result good or bad.
Greg

Ps whether the price of something appears to be too much or not just depends on how desirable the item is, if it’s something you can’t do without it isn’t expensive but if you can get by ok without it then it might appear to be too much or you can justify doing without it, look at how much people are willing to pay for a D4, by that comparison the price of an A99 is a bargain…if you need/want one, if you get a touch of GAS too it can then also look reasonably affordable or justifiable.
classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by classiccameras »

Many review sites have praised Sony for their noise suppression, but at higher ISO levels at the expense of detail. I don't mind a little noise as it can enhance
definition, this is why Sony should have included an 'Off' option but as Barry said they seem unable to grasp this concept or listen to user wishes.

By comparison to most 16/18/24 MP cameras today, my old 12mp Nikon D5000 and 12mp Canon 450D were virtualy noise free and the pictures looked 'cleener' Even Jpegs from these 2 cameras looked better IMO to their later higher MP offspring.
Greg's right, camera price can either be prohibitive or affordable depending on your priorities.
Pete
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Pete it's like scanning film to me, at a certain point you are wasting your time with silly high resolution scans. My scanner can do silly huge files and crazy high mp scans on film, but there is only so much detail there to scan. At a certain point you end up with larger softer images that print no better than smaller sharper ones.

My target output is honestly around 10-12mp, I rarely need more for prints. Even if I have more I've moved to lossy DNG to save space on some work projects.
I did by accident have the A57 set to jpeg on one photo shoot I did, of course I had no problems getting decent prints (it wasn't high ISO either) Unlike some I'm not scared to use high ISO, even taking the Km5d to 3200 at times (which subject to careful processing was able to deliver decent normal print sizes)

It would be much better to have less NR on images even with a bit of grain there (which is far less obvious in print anyway)

The A99 is a bargain if you need FF and it suits your needs. I've never spend over £1000 on a camera and I've no intentions of breaking that habit either ;-)
FF is overpriced, I used a 5dMk III a few weeks ago and nice as it is and decent IQ (DR isn't amazing though) you are paying a premium for the AF system big time. It's grossly overpriced IMO. Cameras like the D4 are specialist niche products really for those who need that tank like can't be broken build.

A lot of folks pick up a s/h 5dMk II which is a decent buy, have to be honest though the low light AF leaves something to be desired having had a play and the DR isn't exactly great either (APS-C cameras can slap it down on DR no problems)

As for high ISO, some tout the noise is linear thing again and again. In reality I have found that real world shooting is the only way to really test..AND if you are able to hit your target print size. I usually need a good ISO 1600 (any modern crop camera can deliver that even older ones) sometimes ISO 3200 rarely the odd time I might push to 6400. All I need is decent print quality for possibly 10x8" if not a bit more. High ISO is far more than just noise, in mixed lighting and low kelvin lighting the results are far more telling than good light high ISO shots are. The A57 can meet that need, I will deliver my verdict on the A77 once it turns up and goes through my special sauce processing that I find works well for low light work.
User avatar
ValeryD
Viceroy
Posts: 1345
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:25 pm
Location: Winnipeg
Contact:

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by ValeryD »

I actually bought A77-II after I tried the demo camera A77-II a month ago. I have to say the same words as used bfitzgerald - I do not want to buy any camera more than $ 1,000, but can not wait until the price will be reduced. :) The camera is very impressed me with a very good autofocus system and low noise in ISO 3200 and ISO 6400. I also have a57 (I had two bodies, one a57 I will keep for my work), but a77-II is much better camera, not as the first version A77 (A77 I had time ago).
Everything in the life unusual!
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: A77 II has landed!

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Well Valery you should share your thoughts on the camera when you get a chance. I was referring to £ sterling prices so the £1000 odd (just under) A77 II price is more than I'd be willing to spend for an APS-C camera. I can stomach £599 though

I'm ok with APS-C but only at a certain price level. I'm sure the A77 II's big buffer and souped up AF is going to appeal to some shooters. Truth is I rarely need a high fps, and after my previous AF disaster with other makers I'm quite happy with a single AF point that can focus! The f2.8 sensor is welcomed though.

The A57 is very good and was something of a bargain at the time. I've shot with it extensively and it's more than capable..though it has reduced controls and handling isn't as good (it's still ok though)

Sony do need to look at the range though A58 isn't interesting for some A77 II will be too expensive for many (price will fall but it will take a while)
I hope to see a proper update to the A57 or a 6 series body..offer a grip option, 2 dial forget sealing and mag alloy just keep it simple. Would be a winner for many
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests