A77 first thoughts and impressions

[bfitzgerald]

Ok I will do this as a "rolling review" as I need time to get used to the camera.
It arrived in a box kit with the 16-50mm taken out, there was no indication the camera had been used, I don't care much but will likely dispose of the box (it's quite massive really)

Build is as I remember from a hands on ages ago, comfy and well put together (but a mix of Canikon styling). It is very similar to the D7000 I had (which was partial mag alloy) the A77 is mag alloy front and back but plastic top plate, the D7000 was mag alloy top and back but not front. The difference doesn't matter both are well built cameras (in this price range) Body size is similar A77 a bit wider but not quite as tall.

The hand grip is much better on the Sony (D7k was straight without a curve)

DK has covered the OLED EVF quite well and from my hands on before I felt it crushes blacks more than the non OLED. The blacks are black on the A77 not milky as they are on the A57. The EVF is a bit larger, and has more resolution and contrast. Only time will tell how it handles tricky hard lighting (ie fill flash shots) this is where the EVF's have fallen down before.

I tested the AF with some but not all lenses, I have no AF concerns and so far it is accurate, fast and no adjustments have been required. I had no serious AF concerns on the A57. Performance is similar (there is no fast or slow setting on the A57) maybe a little faster on the A77, both are fast AF cameras. I have not tested action or moving shots yet.

I expected some lenses to fall over and die, this has not been the case so far. The Tamron 17-50mm is capable of resolving excellent detail, there are no signs of softness at 50mm f2.8 (where the lens is slightly weaker) I have not tested the 18-135mm yet, but it performed well on the A57 I suspect it's capable enough on the A77. The big surprise is the beercan, it does not run and hide even with the extra resolution..maybe I have a good copy but it is capable of good details even at 210mm f4, there is no room for AF errors with such a lens though even a tad out and it won't do. The Tamron 90mm performed well, there are no AF issues to report there either (this lens was a disaster on the D7k, though my finger points to the body not the lens it did fine with contrast AF)

I have to test other lenses that I have.

Image quality:
Dynamic range is excellent, it might even be a bit better than the A57 which was good, having used some Canon's recently I can say without fear it spanks their rear end red raw with DR, and that includes full frame. Canon are not even close DR wise, if that matters maybe not, that's how it looks to me.

High ISO, I have to do more tests but my initial findings are, that the A77 with identical settings for shutter speed, aperture and ISO is giving "a bit more" real world exposure than the A57. I have to explore this more to come to a proper conclusion. This might indicate the ISO values are overstated a bit on the A57 more than the A77, not by much but there is a difference real world. This is the kind of thing you pick up on that review sites can't really give you a feel for.

Processing raw images at ISO 1600 isn't a problem, 3200 there is an increase in chroma noise quite a bit, but decent printable images should be possible. 6400 is thin ice, it is usable on the A57 but you have no real room to go pulling around images and exposures. I have to test the high ISO more to compare both. I would add some of the A77 shots I've seen on Flickr are frankly an abomination to good image processing, over-sharpening, bad use of NR in software, poor exposure, bad technique..enough to scare anyone off of even looking at the camera. Some shots looked so bad I'd have put my Fuji up against them and won no problem.

I will reserve judgement until I have had time to use it properly for high ISO. Metering is good in daylight mostly, but as with other Sony's in low light they need more exposure, same as the A57. I would add +0.7 to +1 stop to exposures. Before anyone complains the D7k I had used to meter completely differently (as have other Nikon's I have used) way more aggressive exposures to the degree I would often have to drop exposures by a stop or 2/3 of a stop not always but quite often. If you take the exposure differences into account it's a bad idea using the Sony in low light with 0 EV adjustment (bar face detection which does influence exposure and can help) You'll get away with it at ISO 1600, a bit at 3200..you will get punished badly at 6400 though.

CW metering gives usually quite a bit more exposure in lower light (might be a good idea to use that) unless you have a very pale subject in the central region.
I will explore this more over time.

Colours and tonality are very good, very similar to the A57 I like them in a way I never quite could with Canikon or Pentax (Olympus and Fuji are also good here)
Will continue in part 2

[bakubo]

Thanks for the first thoughts. Keep us posted on how things go with the A77.

[classiccameras]

Good preview Barry, its not the level of camera I would venture up to.
All we need now is a 57 Mk 2, but I would not want 24mp.

Agree about the Olympus and Fuji comment. best Jpeg colours of any make.

Look foward to your conclusions

[bfitzgerald]

I have no real interest in 24mp, none but I don't mind a bargain either.
Adding a few thoughts

GPS works fine, but it's not "car GPS accurate" it's off a bit on some locations (but near enough to be useful)
Too early to comment on battery, turning off stuff like GPS should help

High ISO, the metering does seem to react to larger white/black areas, quick sample of an ISO 2000 shot (compressed quite a bit but still subject is simple)
http://minus.com/i/buesLWtr3DQsI

I did only light NR and it has a much tighter grain than I would expect. I have to test higher ISO more to compare it to the A57 and to look at exposure.

A few other observations
- 18-135mm works well no problems to report
- It would be useful to be able to cap the ISO levels in non full stops, but it appears to be full stops only
- I fitted a JJC plastic cover to the LCD the A57/65 have the same LCD so they all fit each other (I Had a spare one) LCD protection is a must with Sony!

Video is as it is on the A57 bar the ISO 1600 cap. I only do the odd clip now and then, the A57 is probably better overall (it's capped at ISO 3200 for auto ISO video) if you shoot low light. The new A77II evidently does not have this limit, doesn't crop (with video SS off) and has zebras and audio levels. If you're into serious video that should be a better bet, I'm not so it's not that important

You still have the ? button that isn't useful (bar image deleting) A77II has the C button (sony should have addressed this in firmware)
I would prefer to have a metering switch, I usually set AEL to spot metering..however being able to access flash exp compensation means I have to pick (or assign it to something else)

The left hand dial does not move easily it is stiff, a locking mechanism isn't really needed
The AF has so far not required any AF fine tune settings, the accuracy is very good (I had no major complaints with the A57 either)
Bounce flash shots inside are well exposed, I am using Metz though (firmware 1.07) I have to test fill flash shots outside though

Buffer is about 15-16 frames (with a decent card) I used an 80MB/s sandisk it clears the buffer quickly (45MB/s is slower but acceptable) a normal class 10 card takes ages to clear the buffer. Buffer is bigger on the A57 (about 22-23 shots) but it's not UHS-I compliant (it's ok clearing with the 45MB/s though but certainly slower then the A77). D7k I had was about 10 shots buffer. I don't do action much so it's not a big deal to me. I can see how the A77 II would be appealing for sports/action shooters though.

Controls are good, but the buttons on the right hand side are quite a few. I can see why to a point (ie controls within reach) but it will take a while to get used to. Drive button is a stretch on the top panel. Would prefer a drive dial under the mode dial being honest (bit Canon ish top panel)

Top LCD is "ok" but it doesn't show exp comp value (just that it is changed) unless you press the exp comp button. I'm neutral on top LCD's not a big deal and never was to me, can be handy for tripod work. Canikon do a better job with information though
Rear dial I have set to exp comp. Unlike Nikon you can't set it to ISO (which was quite handy)

Would be useful to set the frame rate of the low speed cont drive mode, I could do this on the D7k (ie set it at a higher level say 5/6fps) you have only 3fps and 8fps nothing in between
Cont AF re-focusses quickly, on the new A77II you can set a delay limit evidently (and I could on the D7k) this isn't a big deal to me as I don't do sports much, it can be handy to define this aka players running in front of each other. For non sports it's not an issue

You get a "slightly" better strap (grin) it's a bit wider than the A57 strap, has A77 on it and is a little better quality. I'm not a strap person if it works it works so long as the camera doesn't fall out I'm ok

Will continue later!

[alphaomega]

Last edict from Barry Fitzgerald I read before noticing this new thread was

That's more acceptable price wise. Though I have to reign in my spending a bit I would likely get one at some point

and then I find he would appear to have purchased a (new or used?) A77 MKI. I am pleased he seems to be quite happy with his purchase.
I am pondering the RX100III but noticed this http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-low- ... in-europe/
so if I waited 3-4 months I should be able to "shave near enough 12% off current price of £700 to near £600. WEX are selling the A6000 with 16-50 zoom at £649. I hate the idea of paying more for the RX100III than for the A6000 with lens. So I will wait a while. Sorry about that Sony.

[bfitzgerald]

Anything becomes attractive at a certain price point. I had no real intentions of buying an A77, but it is bought new (seems no point buying s/h right now as you get your warranty for a year)

So far it has been better than I expected. Like many I sometimes fall foul of comparison sites and over research, maybe I should just read DK's reviews properly from now on
I can't find the link but I did see it aka the price of the A7r. I'll be dead honest if I had paid £1100 odd for the A77 I would be slightly disappointed (not that it is bad, but I do not feel it was worth that asking price) at £599 and with s/h prices sure to fall it's not a bad buy at all. There is no point buying an A65 unless you prefer the small more compact body, it's only £100 cheaper than the A77. Everything is relative as they say I paid £680 for a D7000 in 2012 which I didn't feel was a bad price (had the camera lived up to it's potential I would have been quite happy)

As the Sony cost me even less I can overlook some weaker points (the autofocus so far is very accurate and fast far better than I expected) this was a huge huge bug bear for me with Pentax and Nikon. Most of the "nicer" areas are as you would expect, handling and controls which can make life easier. There are some additional features which can be useful the AF assist light, AF fine tune (if you need it) but that's really where the extra cost yields benefits. In terms of image quality I'm still looking at that..unless you need more pixels (and I don't) there isn't a huge reason to move up to the A77 from something like the A57.

[classiccameras]

Barry, how heavy is the 77 compared to the 57, I should also imagine its quite a lump with the 18-135 on the front.

[peterottaway]

The A77 is just over 650g and the 18-135 400g. The camera is certainly as large as I am comfortable with but I have used it with the CZ 16-35, Minolta 28-70, Minolta 80-200 plus the Sony 75-300 hand held for considerable periods just as I did with my previous A700. It is solid and stable enough even to hand hold the 75-400 for shorter periods should it be necessary.

I have encountered no problems with lighter lenses such as the APS 16-50 / 2.8 or the 18-135.

In comparison the Canon 7D is some 840g and the Nikon D7100 is 675g which is pretty much identical with the A77.

Barry will have his own opinions but I decided to comment as I was passing through.

[classiccameras]

Pete, thats some useful info on the various weights with different lenses.
Thanks. I find after a few hours with my 57/ KM 17-35 round my neck it starts to ache but a brilliant combination for L/scapes.

[bfitzgerald]

Pete is right it's not small, but it's not big mid sized close to the film 7 (bit deeper) it's not as big as the Canon 7d though and def not as heavy.
I like the A57 size wise, but I'm ok with mid sized depends on the task carrying a flash around on top all day and a lens a bit bigger helps, so can a grip (wish they had done a grip for the A57)

For a lighter day out trip the A57 is better suited it's a decent size not too tiny, not too big. A77 is comfy, Sony at least kept the "good grip" mentality from Minolta

[peterottaway]

I can't remember the last time that I carried cameras such as the A850 or A77 around the neck or in a conventional shoulder hang. These days I usually use wrist straps or broader replacement straps and small sling or backpack. Unless the strap is a decent width I automatically replace it but this is a question of personal taste as some of these straps are too wide for me as well.

For smaller cameras such as the Nex you can always start by looking at some of the "Leica" straps but generally I go with the cotton webbing style. Even so it is still a lot of trial and error to match a new camera with an existing strap before buying a new one. A lot of apparently trivial decisions to be made when all you want to do is go out and use your new camera.

I haven't mention brand names because they can vary from market to market and you never can tell what is going to be available at any one time.

[bfitzgerald]

This should give you an idea of the A77 and the Tamron 17-50mm (the 18-135mm is very close size wise to the 17-50mm)

DSCF7011.jpg

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[mikeriach]

Barry,

An interesting read, thank you.
I have to admit you hit on a couple of things I agree on.

The gap between 8fps and 3fps is too great. I find 8 is somewhat uncontrollable and I get too many frames but 3 is too slow. I hanker for something around 5.

Yes the drive button is a bit out of the way but on the plus side the 'comfort in hand' is excellent.

Battery life can vary quite considerably. An intense session with the 70-400 yielded close to 600 as I recall yet playing on the beach for an hour or so trying to catch the dog can see it drop 40%.

I'd agree with your comments on noise, but I don't often shoot above around ISO500 or 640 so I can get away with it.

I estimate I've shot over 25000 images with it and overall I'm very happy with it.

Mike

[bfitzgerald]

Hi Mike
It's small things like the fps rate Sony often overlook (also bits like being able to put your copyright data in camera) I give Nikon some credit (and Pentax too) for individual customisation of cameras (at this level though Pentax are good even on entry models) they have it mostly nailed down. Canon do too but I find their custom menus a real chore and not intuitive at all.

On the D7k you simply set the min fps to what you want, on a camera like the A77 I'd say 5fps would be just about fine like you say.
These things don't pull the train off the tracks as such, and I see Sony have sorted a few things out on the updated model (ie the C button is back, other improvements to customisation) On the Nikon you can also set the high ISO limit at say ISO 2000, small bits like that make a difference.

However, AF performance wise so far the A77 utterly mangle the Nikon's I had, both for speed and accuracy, the red AF assist has some serious advantages over the Nikon "white light" AF beam, it's far less annoying...and you can focus on even no contrast subjects (you can't with the beam lights on Nikon and Pentax, they just give more light) something I have liked on A Mount esp the film 7 bodies and it's the same with the A77.

That assist light can be extremely useful (even though my flashes can do the same, I have to have a flash mount for that) This is one reason I'm put off with Canon, AF assist light? Nothing no matter how much you spend. A real shame the MkII Sony dropped that.

I have to do some low light testing, but so far what I'm seeing is..well not a lot of difference between the A57 and the A77 which was unexpected. I've not looked in detail at DPR's test shots (ie exposure wise) but they clearly showed quite a bit more chroma noise at high ISO. I'm not seeing much difference real world between both, bar the A77's image is bigger of course.

This has highlighted something to me, how dangerous it can be to rely on some sources for making a choice. I have to do some proper tests to conclude this but that's what has shown with the few I've done so far. I will say as per the A57 at high ISO you're not getting anywhere near the resolution of the native sensor, I think PP strategy wise it makes no sense to have 16/24mp high ISO files say at ISO 3200, I'll look into this a bit more.

Am I keeping it? So far yes I am. I don't think there are any significant reasons for anyone with a 16/20mp Sony SLT to consider upgrading IQ wise unless you are desperate for more pixels (you can be quite aggressive with cropping on 16mp, and 12mp is comfortable for most) handling wise well possibly though the A57 body is ok here (I would change a few things controls wise) DR might be a tad higher on the A77 (they are quite close output wise)

The A77 does seem to be able to control the sensor overload I saw on the A57's sensor (the green lines) much better, this isn't a real issue for most shooting situations (bar taking photos of led lights in a black room) or possibly night shooting. I have since seen this line effect on a FF Canon with a backlit portrait, I've not been able to trigger the effect on either camera with that scenario. I don't regret bringing it up though

I can still recommend the A57 as a bargain camera, it's IQ is good and it's quite capable and a real shame Sony discontinued it. If you want the bells and whistles and handling bits, then the A77 is hard to beat at this price. But as I said at the original asking price I would not have been interested in it. I have ordered a grip to see how that goes.

In future I think I'll just read DK's review or send him a message, it will save a lot of time with camera purchase choices.
I'd almost buy another one..really the humble pie has had to come out. I was quite wrong to slate the A77

[classiccameras]

Thanks Barry for the continuing review, its proving very useful.
Its interesting you mention DR as very good, looking back at all the AP tests on Sony A mount SLT. The A 37 got a 9 out of 10, for DR all the rest were lower. However, reviews can be inaccurate and its wise to not take every thing as gospel. A good example was the EphotoZine reviews on the A37 and A57. The 37 got huge ammounts of praise [probably more to do with price] and IQ was excellent etc etc,. With their 57 review they could only say the IQ was good and couldn't bring themselves to use the word excellent, which we all know is!
In DPreviews, both the 37 and 57 were awarded gold awards along with excellent IQ.

So review sites vary and often clash with their conclusions, and its reviews like Barry is doing now that are far more subjective as are some owners review sites, far more useful.
Pete