Sony A-99 11

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CHOLLY
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:53 am

:?:

Sony is continuing to update it's CZ and G lens lineups with new, faster ssms and nano AR coatings which are supposed to improve both internal reflections AND increase the MTF performances.

Don't take my word for it; look it up.

A mount is gonna be around as long as Sony can make money selling cameras... and right now they are.

This new A99II is part of the reason why.

classiccameras
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby classiccameras » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:55 am

This forum seems to be for those with high end gear and money to support that, Where are all the other members of more meagre means who are using more basic and cheaper gear because their budget like mine cannot afford any thing more, I think most have been scared off, Shame really as this site is for all enthusiasts of Sony not just for the rich.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:56 pm

classiccameras wrote:This forum seems to be for those with high end gear and money to support that, Where are all the other members of more meagre means who are using more basic and cheaper gear because their budget like mine cannot afford any thing more, I think most have been scared off, Shame really as this site is for all enthusiasts of Sony not just for the rich.


Well for me being self employed some of my income comes from photography so I can offset the cost of any purchases ie they are a cost of business. However as I have most of what I want I can't really eat into income by constantly buying items if I don't need them thus I've not been buying much stuff simply because it's not needed.

It is true camera prices have gone up partly Yen strength and I have no doubts the Brexit sterling fall also a factor. It does seem Sony are keen to ramp prices more than others across the range. The price increases on the A6500 and RX series as the video says are huge and it's not just the UK (that guy is in the USA) if you compare them to other makers Sony are price gouging more than others no reason for an A77II to be nearly £1000 when Nikon's equivalent is over £150 cheaper. I'm sure the sensor earthquake issue hurt Sony but you'd think they would do a bit of research on Tectonic plates and work out that Japan isn't a great place to build a factory.

Sales took a hefty dive probably partly down to that ie no sensor production stopped on many models. Looks like customers are being asked to pay for that problem. The lack of lenses or development isn't encouraging even a few now and then would help significantly. It's quite embarrassing to have some of those ancient outclassed lenses such as the 11-18mm around when nobody is going to buy them. Wouldn't have killed them to make an 85mm F1.8 either they did for E mount another eye watering price on that optic. Canon's EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS USM II Lens (a lens I have used and it's excellent) is just under £1800, Sony's G master E mount 70-200mm F2.8 is £2500. I doubt many E mount users are overly impressed with pricing either

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:32 pm

classiccameras wrote:This forum seems to be for those with high end gear and money to support that, Where are all the other members of more meagre means who are using more basic and cheaper gear because their budget like mine cannot afford any thing more, I think most have been scared off, Shame really as this site is for all enthusiasts of Sony not just for the rich.


:?: :?: :?:

I have not seen anything here that asserts or confirms your statement. Nothing at all.

People have discussed a number of ideas and concepts in this thread ABOUT a high end camera, including the affordability of camera gear in general and the financial stability of the camera market.

Financial stability I might add, that is dependent on a shrinking market due to pricing, the economy in general, and the prevalence of cell phone cameras.

As the market CONTINUES to contract, we will ALL have to make adjustments if we wish to continue our avocation/vocation....

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby classiccameras » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:07 pm

As usual Cholly, You seem to be always right, so I am bowing out gracefully from this site.

Its been good and some times frustrating discussing topics, some have been very useful for tips and advice and I thank every one for that, but I feel out of my depth amongst you pros. In particular I thank Barry for the many tips and advice he has given me and his usual take on the industry has always been entertaining.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:17 pm

Nobody is out of their depth here we just comment on stuff. I don't really accept the way to counter the shrinking market is to embark on a path of continuous price rises in order to try to plug the losses. That is a a short term strategy and will only lead to even more reductions in sales. People will just buy s/h or just pass on buying a product if it's not priced at "fair" levels. The A77II is a prime example of that no buy for me not worth it. A99II will do OK as it's spanking new, but it does nothing to fill the gap where people want a more affordable FF model.

The camera industry has long tried to buck the consumer electronics market by ignoring the simple rule electronics just get cheaper over time (we'll have to overlook currency issues for the moment it's a factor but the reality is obvious). HD TV's were costly now they are cheap as chips..so they move onto 4K to ramp prices eventually they will be cheap and 8K models will be out and priced higher. Computer another example huge price drops in real terms over the decades. Yet amazingly cameras get more expensive. I think the industry will have a really hard time over the next 5 years + as potential buyers stick with phones ignoring cameras entirely, those who do buy them will buy less often as the cost is excessive. I know many people who are happily using 5dMkII's and won't update they see no reason to. It's going to get a lot worse over time and more players will get fingers burnt. Sony will struggle with market share as people will be put off with the high prices. I don't really see that as a winning strategy..Sony are not Leica

Sony's current pricing encourages people to stay with or buy Nikon/Canon both of whom ramped prices too..but not to the levels Sony has. They made the same mistake with A mount heavy price rises on lenses wiping out any reason to consider buying a camera with IBIS..story today would be very different if they gave people an incentive 10 years ago. E mount is going the same way lenses priced way above competitors. Not going to work

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:10 am

Sony prices are in line with the prices from ALL the remaining camera manufacturers... and those prices are "high" because there are fewer and fewer people buying cameras.

Just look at unit sales across the board.

Again, the ONLY company that is expanding their market share is Sony... but only because of the strategy of going after existing DSLR owners with the temptation of a high image quality, low footprint camera that will allow them to use their existing glass.

Still, day by day, the number of people willing to sink a substantial amount of money into this hobby is shrinking.

The Moore's Law metaphor SHOULD apply to to photography as it does to electronics in general... but BECAUSE the market is contracting, companies are dealing with the profitability expectation from shareholders by increasing price.

As you say, that's completely unsustainable, and I think they all know it.

In 20 years there probably won't be a market for new digital cameras... just as you assert. :(

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:48 pm

This sums things up quite nicely:
https://lensvid.com/gear/lensvid-exclus ... stry-2016/

Though I would say you can't just blame smart phones for the market collapse that is one factor and fairly big. If camera makers continue to spiral into price increases year on year then sales will continue to decline. Cameras are a bit like gaming consoles you suck people in then get the cash off the games or in this case the extras. X % of buyers will expand a system so the era of £199 entry level CSC or DSLR cameras is essential to boosting interest in the sector. As the video shows people are upgrading far less often that's also significantly impacting sales too. Jacking prices up even more isn't going to convince people to open their wallets. The current plan from most makers is almost guaranteeing that they are going to suffer even more.

My prediction is that at least 2 makers will lose their shirts or pack in the camera industry entirely. My money is on Panasonic possibly doing an exit and Ricoh who took very big losses last year. Fuji are touch and go perhaps in a slightly better position with X mount than some other makers. I would also expect this to impact other makers such as lenses, accessories, tripods, flashes and related items. The China makers are in a better position they're killing OEM makers for flashguns and grips/batteries at prices they simply cannot match. These are big margin products that cost peanuts to make.

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:23 am

^^^We covered a LOT of the points raised in that video.

Sony is dong much to buck the trends with their offerings.

EX: The A6000 was a HUGE change compared to the NEX-6 and NEX-7. The A6300 again offered a great improvement in feature set, and the A6500 while not quite as revolutionary, does indeed round out the APS-C mirror less line-up quite nicely.

Same for improvements with the APS-C A mounts. The A77 was light years ahead of the A700 in every respect, and the A77II offered a vast improvement over the A77.

The lineage of the A99II follows the same trajectory, with the latest camera being substantially better in every way than the A99, which was in turn, FAR superior to both the A900 and the A850.

So unlike Canon, which will change the paint on the mk number and nothing else while at the same time increasing price by 20%... (witness the 7D mkII and 5D mkIV) Sony gives people much more incentive to purchase, and VALUE with... newer model cameras.

It really does seem as if the people at Sony have thought this new reality out, and have figured out how to survive financially.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:43 pm

I'm not sure what you consider "vast" improvement yes there are many but also some useful areas are removed in recent bodies. So it's not entirely as convincing as you say. I use GPS a lot it's something I find worthwhile..yet Sony have not even managed to produce a clip on hot shoe unit for the much touted MIS something that should be pretty easy to do. Let's have some choices out there

A77II adds quite a few advances in AF, buffer and features/video. One panel is now plastic v the mag alloy on the A77 not the end of the world but a slight downgrade in build..and as mentioned GPS removed, no AF assist light. But it's a very modest update in terms of sensor performance really depends on what you are looking for. I can't really find it appealing at nearly £1000 because I'm not a big AF user and don't really push the buffer. I wouldn't rule it out just not as current prices it's too old to pay that for a body.

A99II is a more significant update but again we're talking quite a few years since the A99 and the price has gone up very substantially too. If we follow your trend the A77III will be £1500 and if they ever do an A99III it might be £4500. That's great if you want to lash out that kind of outlay. Ever increasing product prices have consequences if you don't have many models..Canikon do have a much bigger range of bodies. Though Nikon's entry models did very little the previous ones did they are at least pretty cheap (D3400 etc). I remember forums posters hailing the A77II as a superb bargain v the Canon 7dMkII yet the Canon is only slightly more than the Sony, Ditto D7200 is also cheaper

The video shows a significant sales decline and volume of units including lenses sold. I expect that trend to continue as the industry further digs itself into an trap of constant price increases in a desperate attempt to raise cash.
I paid £37 for a Sony battery (FM500H) a few years back the same cell on Amazon is almost £60. Last I looked at the Euro priced Sony sites they wanted a staggering €87 for one. I know exactly how much the cells cost to make the margins on products like that are obscene even using top quality Panasonic cells (they take 2 18500 3.7V lithium cells). When prices go sky high buyers stop spending which is why you'll see even further drops in sales for the next few years and longer, unless makers start to work out where they are going horribly wrong some will put themselves out of business entirely.
Last edited by bfitzgerald on Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CHOLLY
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:34 pm

The body of the A77II is IDENTICAL to that of the A77; both are Magnesium Alloy and plastic in exactly the same places.

And while GPS is gone in both the mk models of the top end SLT cameras, in both cases it has been replaced by greater connectivity (WiFi and NFC) and in the case of the 99mkII, location via GPS can be obtained through linkage with a smartphone. A net gain for that model and a tradeoff for the 77mkII.

And as a long time user of the original A77, I can tell you that they A77mkII AF module is MORE than enough justification for purchasing the new camera. It is a completely different experience, and more in line with professional cameras than anything Sony had ever stuck in one of their offerings.

Additionally, the ability to download images quickly via WiFi is another advance, the value of which is completely underestimated by people UNTIL they use it.

Also, you don't need the AF illumination light because the 77mkII is several stops MORE sensitive in low light than the 77 is. AND in the event that you DO need an AF assist, the pop-up flash serves that purpose.

I don't own the A99mkII YET. I'm one of those people who has to save to buy gear, and with retirement just across the street and two granddaughters college education to pay for, toys are way down on the list of priorities. But when I DO buy one before the end of 2017, I suspect that it will be a HUGE advance over the A99.

I gotta say this again; we are not quite grasping the true cause and effect relationship between increased costs for photography related products and the reasons for those increases.

Manufacturers are charging more because the market is shrinking. That was evident in the video... and when fewer people buy your product, you HAVE to charge more just to make the same profit... or for that matter, you have to charge more just to stay in business.

Additionally, YOU lot there in the UK are paying more BECAUSE of a little vote the majority made last year that will cause EVERYTHING to cost more. :cry:

As to entry models... Sony is selling what the market will support. Right now they REALIZE that they can only offer 3 SLT models. They do offer bridge cameras for entry purposes to both their A mount and E mount line ups.

So far they are still making money... something that can NOT be said for other companies with more comprehensive ranges of cameras. :|

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:53 pm

"The body of the A77II is IDENTICAL to that of the A77; both are Magnesium Alloy and plastic in exactly the same places"

Might want to do a bit of checking on that A77 has front and rear mag alloy panels the A77II has only a rear mag alloy panel.
What you feel isn't important might not agree with what I feel so you can say oh raise the flash for AF assist all day long it's much more logical to have that IR assist light. Wi-fi sucks the battery and I already have an eyefi card so it's not really of much use to me

I don't live in the UK most of the year I live in the EU and no I didn't vote to leave either it's partly down to the sterling crash but prices increase in other regions to. Go back to the post with the guy who bought the A99II and he said he wanted the AF assist light and GPS. £3000 camera I think it's perfectly fine for users to tell camera makers what they want he seems to agree with me that they were useful.

Not sure about your economics if Sony continue to rise prices and other makers they will have even less sales. I thought the company wanted to gain market share? The ILC market has been quite static for a number of years in terms of growth. The facts don't seem to be working in your favour. Sony have a history of giving more and taking stuff away no idea why because the small areas they do remove some people liked them and they didn't add much cost.

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:47 pm

Owing both the A77 and A77mkII and holding both cameras in hand prior to posting this reply, I can say that the construction materials used in both bodies are identical. With the exception of the flash mount and AF assist light, the bodies are identical.

AGAIN, the A77II AF system is capable of effective AF without assist in much lower light conditions than the A77, and in the event that an assist is needed, the camera is designed to use the pop up flash.

As to battery drain, the GPS module, like the new WiFi/NFC modules, DO use power. You can minimize that drain by turning both off when not needed. But the WiFi/NFC does not drain more or less power than the GPS module does. And... to SAVE battery, all you have to do is turn them off. ESPECIALLY when you are not using them.

Unfortunately, an increase in the price of EVERYTHING was one of the consequences of the "BREXIT" vote that most of those in favor did NOT foresee. Now everyone in the UK will suffer those consequences BECAUSE of that vote.

And AGAIN, you are missing the relationship between price increases and the market.

Sony is raising it's prices BECAUSE the market is contracting. They are already losing customers. That's the point and the problem.

The photography industry as WE know it is doomed, and as it continues to shrink, ALL companies will charge more for the products they offer just to maintain profitability.

Sony is surviving and turning a profit BECAUSE it is going after people who are already vested in other manufacturers systems, particularly Canon users. So instead of buying a new +1/10 Canon, they buy either an A7XXX or an A6XXX camera and an adapter. They are so impressed by what they now have, they go out and buy native lenses. THAT is how Sony is turning a profit while others ships are taking on water in this storm of smartphone photography. Sony is sailing a fast frigate than can both out maneuver and out run the biggest wave while other manufacturers flounder in their super tankers and freighters.

Whether you or I personally like what a particular Sony camera does or does not offer, it's OBVIOUS that the company line up appeals to enough other people that they almost alone are profitable. That's worth thinking about. ;)

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:27 pm

What's worth thinking about is why you say the A77II has a front magnesium alloy panel. Because I've held both models and it doesn't unless some dramatic change in production happened since I held one I can't really take what you say with any degree of confidence.

Seems someone else agrees ain't looking metal to me:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55996604

Leaving that aside I think if Sony started burning people at the stake you'd find a positive twist on it. Granted you could say I'm nit picking and frivolous. You can't just blame Brexit for the price increases Sony are out of touch in many regions. I won't get into Brexit because I think it's an incredibly stupid move with huge potential for job losses. What I will say is Sony cannot afford to price themselves out of the market they have competitors and will lose out to them, their price rises are way above Canikon

Some users seemed to find GPS useful:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54425787
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56063940

5dMkIV has GPS
http://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/
and 7dMkII also has it
http://www.canon-europe.com/for_home/pr ... d_mark_ii/

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Re: Sony A-99 11

Unread postby CHOLLY » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:00 am

You SEEM to be taking nearly every thing I type out of context.

You attribute motivation, thoughts, and statements to my posts that just are NOT there.

I have made statements of fact and opinions based on those facts.

You think I would find a positive twist if Sony immolated people because I keep pointing out that it's marketing strategy is successful while other camera manufacturers are losing money?

Well... are other companies losing money? Is Sony?

You keep asserting that GREED is the motivation behind price increases of Sony products, yet you seem to simultaneously ignore the price increases OTHER manufacturers are utilizing to make their shareholders happy. And more importantly, the reason WHY those companies HAVE to increase their prices.

Not once did I say or infer that I preferred the connectivity modules OVER the GPS in the A77II... and I also explained that the problem of GPS has been "worked around" in the A99II.

Finally, the construction materials of the two models... the A77 and A77II are identical because with just a few minor differences the bodies are identical. I own both and there are no differences.

Given the weakness of the the camera market... something that will only change for the worst going forward, it's wishful thinking indeed to imagine that Sony, let alone any other camera manufacturer, will build cameras with every feature we desire at ANY price point.

Those days are gone and they are NOT coming back.

We'll be lucky if we get 10 more years of new gear the way things are going....


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