Sony announces new A9 in New York....

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bakubo
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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby bakubo » Sat May 20, 2017 1:50 am

Sony a9: more speed, less dynamic range

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7266455439/sony-a9-real-world-iso-invariance-and-dynamic-range

It's immediately obvious the a9 is not ISO-invariant. This means the camera is adding a fair amount of read noise that results in noisy shadows, limiting dynamic range at base ISO. That's why, for the same focal plane exposure, performing analog amplification by increasing ISO in-camera gets you a cleaner image than performing that amplification (or brightening) in post-processing.

It's not the typical performance we've come to expect from Sony sensors and we suspect the higher readout speed is leading to greater noise. In other words, it appears this sensor was likely optimized for speed at the expense of low ISO dynamic range.


Just a trade-off that many people will not care about, IMO.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby peterottaway » Sat May 20, 2017 3:03 am

It is not as if DPR hasn't got form for picking a single point and running with it for far more than its worth on any logical scheme of things. Missing is a comparison with the higher end Canon and Nikon cameras under the same conditions. And personally I do wonder whether for a sports photographer, a field photo reporter, a wedding photographer who shoots especially in a reportage style would even bother to be interested in this claim.

If you go to SAR there is a graph published by W J Claff that at low EI the A9 sensor is about 1 stop less than the A7r II in " Photographic Dynamic Range " but 1.2 stops better than the Nikon D5. Which may or may not mean anything to some sort of prospective A9 buyer of which I'm not.

At best just another bit of click bait. Or if you are more cynical about DPR and its commercial interests, best summed up by the old British Army acronym LMF ( Lack of Moral Fibre ).

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby CHOLLY » Sat May 20, 2017 6:54 am

...OR the American Army acronym... S.B.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby bakubo » Sun May 21, 2017 5:59 am

Okay, what I am hearing is that the contention is that this is yet another example of fake news from the corrupt media? :lol:

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby peterottaway » Sun May 21, 2017 10:25 am

No, but it is more than likely to be very selective commentary from DPR especially. To me what they were proclaiming basically isn't of much relevance, particularly for this type of camera. What does that show ? You can't have everything all at once ! :mrgreen:

Just my opinion of course but most potential buyers don't care whether it is ISO invariant or not, hell most of them won't even know what that means. Not as good at low EI as the A7r II ? Not a problem if it's good enough for what I want to do with the camera.

But this is not my type of camera anyway.

As to fake news, I'm trying to be good and not involving myself in political debate at the moment. Besides I'm in awe of a genuine master of the art.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun May 21, 2017 2:29 pm

I'd like to see a taxi driver run for next election (never will happen and no not the De Niro film type either!)
Onto the camera and article probably a trade off in design it's very much aimed at a specific type of shooting. Not that you couldn't use it for landscape shots etc; I read on SAR before it came out it was a "low resolution" sensor. Well in 2017 doubt anyone would have problems making a real big wall print for any half decent camera out there.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby CHOLLY » Sun May 21, 2017 7:57 pm

I would LOVE to see a similar test performed with the D5 which also uses a Sony sensor, or better yet, with the 1DXmkII which uses an inferior Canon sensor......

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby peterottaway » Mon May 22, 2017 6:56 am

But for a number of years even though the Canon hardware was plateauing they managed to keep most of their market from getting too disgruntled by all manner of software tweeks and ruses. Their market share indicates that they make the most of their captive audience together with incentives to retailers, and / or a lot of buyers don't really know or care as long as the camera / user don't aldiborontiphosciphornicate things up too badly, too often.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby classiccameras » Mon May 22, 2017 8:40 am

All things considered, you won't go far wrong with Canon, inferior sensor or not, although I would like to know how inferior as Canon has a huge fan base world wide and I see no one complaining on their chat forums and I don't hold much credence with reviews especially from DP. As one Nikon pro user said about Sony, great sensor, pity they can't get the colour right or make it work better on their own cameras, although you can argue the point.

I personally much prefer Canon colours to Sony. With Canon lenses, you get what you pay for, but that's virtually the same right across most manufactures, just some are worse than others. I was at a country fair/show this weekend gone, with all sorts shows/live music, horse and birds of prey demos going on and lots of sunshine and guess which camera I wished I had, a Bridge super zoom rather than my kit bag with several lenses and 2 bodies. Its going to be my next market research, but it may not be a Sony

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby peterottaway » Mon May 22, 2017 9:17 am

Colour is pretty much all in the mind and what is "correct" can also be affected by cultural preferences even before colour photography ever existed.

All in all, Sony is probably more technically correct in its colour representations, just not what Fuji, Canon, Nikon et al present. Contrast and hue can vary considerably in that it is enough to be detected even on low end uncorrected screens.

I have been shooting quite a bit of colour transparency in both 120 and 135 format over the last few months and this reinforced my views. At the present time you have a choice between the Fuji / Agfa films which has a bluish tinge especially in the shadows, and the Gaevert produced films which are labelled as Rollei or Lomo amongst others with a yellow tinge which take after the old Agfa RSX films.

All I can say is that I still miss Kodachrome II and Fujichrome 50 which they replaced with that bastard Velvia.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby classiccameras » Mon May 22, 2017 1:25 pm

A bit of Psychoanalysis there Peter, but you are right to a point, as you may remember I'm a Jpeg fan and I favour the Fuji/Oly/Canon colours. Yes, on one review of colours ( Jpeg shoot out () it was mentioned that women see colour differently to men not to mention the variations within the gender. I still shoot 35mm reversal E6 with my old Minolta XD-7 and a collection of Minolta lenses, I just can't let go of my 35 mm heritage.
My goodness, Kodachrome 11, what an iconic slide film, I shot thousands of rolls over the years, then tried Fujichrome 50, a bit too contrasty but still liked it. I currently shoot any E6 I can get my hands on. Agfa Gaevert had an unusual tint and a bit grainy which I was not too keen on.
PS, saw some old stock Kodachrome 25 and 64 advertised on E bay a couple of years ago but it depended on how genuine the product was and had it been stored properly, the latter I doubt.

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby pakodominguez » Mon May 22, 2017 2:56 pm

bfitzgerald wrote:I'd like to see a taxi driver run for next election (never will happen and no not the De Niro film type either!)

How about Chance Gardener, Peter Selers' character on Been There?
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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby CHOLLY » Mon May 22, 2017 3:07 pm

classiccameras wrote:All things considered, you won't go far wrong with Canon, inferior sensor or not, although I would like to know how inferior as Canon has a huge fan base world wide and I see no one complaining on their chat forums and I don't hold much credence with reviews especially from DP. As one Nikon pro user said about Sony, great sensor, pity they can't get the colour right or make it work better on their own cameras, although you can argue the point.

I personally much prefer Canon colours to Sony. With Canon lenses, you get what you pay for, but that's virtually the same right across most manufactures, just some are worse than others. I was at a country fair/show this weekend gone, with all sorts shows/live music, horse and birds of prey demos going on and lots of sunshine and guess which camera I wished I had, a Bridge super zoom rather than my kit bag with several lenses and 2 bodies. Its going to be my next market research, but it may not be a Sony


Canon DELIBERATELY strings their "consumers" along with incremental improvements to OLD TECHNOLOGY. The biggest advantage Canon has over all the other manufacturers is not durability or performance or price or even quality; IT'S MARKETING!

THAT'S why so many people buy Canon... NOT because their products are better... because they AREN'T.

But as more and more people try Sony, they will switch.

As to colors... well; Peter is right. Canon gives you color rendition based on psychological surveys, whereas Sony and Pentax give you what the camera "sees"... a much more accurate representation of what is actually there. NOT what you WISH were there.

And with today's post processing software, I'd rather work with the actual colors of the scene than what Mr. Canon THINKS I wanted the scene to look like. :lol:

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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby pakodominguez » Mon May 22, 2017 4:01 pm

classiccameras wrote: Yes, on one review of colours ( Jpeg shoot out () it was mentioned that women see colour differently to men not to mention the variations within the gender.

Even if it is scientifically proved that women see better the colors than men, I have not find yet, in 20+ years working in the photolab industry, any woman doing an outstanding job in color correction... :?
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Re: Sony announces new A9 in New York....

Unread postby pakodominguez » Mon May 22, 2017 4:24 pm

peterottaway wrote:Colour is pretty much all in the mind and what is "correct" can also be affected by cultural preferences even before colour photography ever existed.

I remember reading about the introduction of the Konika Minolta 7D, that part of the deliberation was on the color reproduction, since Minolta and Konika had different understanding on color. If i remember properly, Konika won that battle, but colors on the 7D were not that different from the Dimage 7Hi/A1/A2 cameras (that were quite pleasant IMHO) other than the skin tones, a little too "peachy" on the 7D.
peterottaway wrote:All in all, Sony is probably more technically correct in its colour representations, just not what Fuji, Canon, Nikon et al present. Contrast and hue can vary considerably in that it is enough to be detected even on low end uncorrected screens.

You are facing here a different issue: Canon (more than Nikon) as the dominant brand, educated digital photographers that their colors are better/nicer/accurate. I'm personally fine with Canon colors, but I prefer Nikon colors. Sony colors on the A99/A77 and A7xx cameras are better than with the NEX7; and I think the colors on the A700/A900 were great for their generation.
peterottaway wrote:I have been shooting quite a bit of colour transparency in both 120 and 135 format over the last few months and this reinforced my views. At the present time you have a choice between the Fuji / Agfa films ...

I've been shooting film lately, but mostly black and white. I hadn't realized until I read your post, that Kodak is not offering slide film anymore :-/
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