Number of Votes per Poll for the Challenges? Suggestions ?

A photo challenge starting January 5th 2009. One image only, normal size restrictions apply (1000 pixel maximum width or height recommended - if vertical we suggest 700 pixels maximum width). No followup images (comparisons) except by those who have not already posted their one image. Discussion welcome - please only repeat images in discussion posts if absolutely essential. Aster has been appointed moderator of this forum in recognition of her commitment to making it great fun. This does not prevent others from setting challenges!

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One image only, normal size restrictions apply (1000 pixel maximum width or height recommended - if vertical we suggest 700 pixels maximum width). No followup images (comparisons) except by those who have not already posted their one image. Discussion welcome - please only repeat images in discussion posts if absolutely essential. Participants should provide basic camera data (body, lens, ISO, mode, exposure over-ride or WB settings), and details of raw processing and subsequent PP.
Lonnie Utah
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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To Winter”-ends Nov

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Just a question, and something that does not seem quite fair to me. There are 3 polls, all with 1 voting option. It seems to me that depending on how photos get grouped with other photos, esp since you ask folks to vote in all three polls, that will influence the way the voting turns out. What if someone thinks that the best 3 photos are all in poll #2 (or #1 or 33)? To be fair to everyone the best way to run a split poll like this to make all three polls multiple choice polls.

This is not a fair way to run this. My $0.02.

And 1 other thing. I really don't appreciate other folks assigning names to my photos without my consent, esp when my photo already has a name in other venues. If you wanted to assign a name, the proper thing to have done was to send a PM or other message to the artist asking what THEY wanted to name the photo. It's like me renaming the Mona Lisa. Sorry to seem like a jerk, but this sort of thing IS important to me...

The correct name for my photo is "Winter comes early".

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby aster » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:15 pm

aster wrote:Hi everyone, :D

Challenge #43:"Autumn-From Summer to Winter" is now over and it's time to cast your votes in a three-part poll for your choices among a 29-photo-pool of images. : )

Please don't forget to vote in all of the three parts to ensure at least some justice.. : )

Here's Part 1 of the submissions that await your votes:

POLL PART 2

POLL PART 3


Good luck everyone! As usual, you all made choosing a difficult task with these wonderful entries.

Yildiz

ps. I took the liberty of titling some of the photos since they had not been tittled to make identification a little easier. If you have your own suggestions, please don't hesitate to PM me with your own choice of words. Thanks for your understanding.



Hi Lonnie,

I certainly don't have a habit of assigning titles to others' art work.
Please read my informative introductions to the challenge and poll threads before you accuse me or anyone of treating your work and yourself disrespectfully.
I always kindly expect from each contributor to actually type their photo title somewhere in their posts where they also attach or link their shots. I have asked everyone to do this in the past as well; some kindly complied, some just linked their photos and left which makes things difficult for me because I don't have the time to contact everyone who forget to makes things clearer for me.
Please make sure that you have taken the time to write out clearly what title you assigned to your works. I can't trace your works back to their original locations and look for titles each time. That's just not my responsibility; that's your responsibility as the contributor, Lonnie.

In my introductory message to POLL PART 1, I already had mentioned it in the last section to remind everyone. See ny quoted introduction above.

As for grouping the photos; I don't group them at all. All photos are listed in relation to their submission time. You can vote or not in any of the three sections but my duty here is to remind everyone to look closely into all photo projects before making up their minds, not tell them what do or vote for. Since all photos that get a vote rate of 10% and above will also enter the FINAL POLL, there's a good chance that all the photos that were a little over 'satisfactory' will be on display in the FINAL POLL and will also get a voting opportunity.
I don't think I have the time or the forum features to devise a more respectful and justifying voting process at the moment. Each poll only allows 10 question items at time because of the forum software. As I said beforee, all photos that get a vote rate of 10% or above by November 22nd will get the chance to enter yet an other FINALIZING poll where and when the winning entry is determined by the forum members.

We have done this many times before in the challenges. I'm taken aback that you haven't followed this tiny detail all this past time.

I'll now replace the title of your photo with which you provided.

Yildiz

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:43 pm

aster wrote: Each poll only allows 10 question items at time because of the forum software.


Right, but my issue is not the number of items in each poll, it's that you only allow 1 vote per poll. The forum software does allow multiple votes per poll, up to the maximum number of choices (10). To truly be fair in this type of situation you should allow people the 10 maximum votes in each poll, rather than just one. Then, if they wanted folks could then vote for just one image, or they could vote for all of them, or they could vote for none. At the conclusion of the voting, simply pick the top 10 photos across all polls for the final poll. That's the only fair way to do it when you have multiple polls.

The way this is, a person could feel that all of the best images are all in the same poll, yet they only get to choose one from that poll. As a result, the votes for those images are split while other images in other polls collect votes even when they are not as good as others.

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby [SiC] » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:22 am

Thank you for naming my contribution Yildiz, I didn't have a title for it - but your title is perfect :)
I've missed the photo challenges in the past but it looks to me your doing a great job and all participants should be grateful for your time.

The voting could be debated for next time but unfortunately I think the forum software limits the choices you have regarding if the user can just vote for one or several submissions (?)
This way the voters really must decide which one in each poll is the best, and then it all comes down to the final poll. Works for me, I don't think I'll be near the finals anyway :D
Just my 2 öre ;-)

/Zeb!
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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby [SiC] » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:29 am

My bad, checked now and the poll can be designed so that the user can vote for several images. But this can make the voter lazy and vote for five submissions instead of really thinking hard over which one really is _the_ best.

/Z!
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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby Birma » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:06 am

I'd like to echo Zeb's sentiments - I'm very grateful to Yildiz for all of the effort she puts in to sorting out the challenges. I didn't think that they were to be treated very seriously - I think that they are meant to be a bit of light-hearted fun. It is probably a bit of a cliche but my attitude to these has always been that it's not whether you win or lose, but the taking part that counts :D .
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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby aster » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:25 am

Hi Sebastian, : )

First I’d like to thank you for taking the time to check the facts about the poll features and also for actually being aware of my actual motive for limiting the times the voter can vote; I want the contributors and the voters, who are mostly the same people, to search in their hearts and consciences for the best photo and make one final decision.

That’s been my one and only reason ever from the very beginning. Studying the photos honestly, weighing them visually with all of their concept, technical and composition values in relation to the challenge title and making one final decision should be the target of the voter.

Requires some work and time but also honesty against biased emotions towards one’s own entry. One also has to be strong enough emotionally to pass one’s own photo entry in favour of an other’s good work.

This challenge has no power to change the photography world officially but is a friendly ‘contest’ among the forum members, all the same. The polls that are arranged for challenges do not comprise of multiple-choice survey questions which would be suitable for polls on opinions or technical equipment, like ‘the zoom/wide-angle lenses of your choice in everyday shooting?’ or ‘which of the backpack brands do you use or prefer to carry your equipment around on a desert trip?’ .

This is a contest and at least one photo has to be better than the others for some good reason, and that requires honest analyzing.


Lonnie;

I’d never allow for 10 votes when there already are 10 entries to choose from. 9 or 8 votes or less would not be acceptable either. Why? We have to determine a winner and it has to be determined within a certain period of time. We have to learn to decide which is better or best and why.
If allowed 10 votes each for every voter when there are merely 10 photos in the contest, we may never see the end of the poll. It could go on forever to find a winner. Should each voter decide to use all of the 10 votes, we’d only be where we started in the beginning with, with no winner; 100 votes would be cast by 10 voters that consequently would have no bearing influence to determine any winner. We don’t have infinite time on our hands.
(10*10=100 votes is almost like 0-zero votes )

As Zeb says, it would be a wiser move to discuss the voting process in an other thread where many can contribute with their solutions but I believe that everyone has to grow into a maturity in photography where they can make honest decisions without straying into biased preferences.

I won’t change the rules for this challenge but the discussion can be continued in an other thread in the Challenge Section with everone’s contributions.

Thanks,

Yildiz

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby aster » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:36 am

Birma wrote:I'd like to echo Zeb's sentiments - I'm very grateful to Yildiz for all of the effort she puts in to sorting out the challenges. I didn't think that they were to be treated very seriously - I think that they are meant to be a bit of light-hearted fun. It is probably a bit of a cliche but my attitude to these has always been that it's not whether you win or lose, but the taking part that counts :D .



Hi Birma;

Just realized that you have posted while I was trying to submit my previous message. : )

Thanks for seeing through the purpose of these challenges; a little light-hearted fun ... but still a contest that provides an opportunity to honestly analyze how we look at photos and make assessments.

I have learned a lot from photo-analyzing and it also contributed to my daily life; I earned a mental filter that seeks for the photo-worthy details and events that otherwise would have gone unnoticed for a life time.

And of course seeing some great photo projects to colour and design our world is a BIG BONUS. :D

Nothing to be grateful for really. : ) I love that there are so many great works to look and then again to look ...and then again to look at for long moments....Photography is a silent, beautiful and sometimes a cruel (war photos) teacher that only lends a voice through one's eyes.

Thanks,

Yildiz

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:52 pm

aster wrote:Hi Sebastian, : )

First I’d like to thank you for taking the time to check the facts about the poll features and also for actually being aware of my actual motive for limiting the times the voter can vote; I want the contributors and the voters, who are mostly the same people, to search in their hearts and consciences for the best photo and make one final decision.

That’s been my one and only reason ever from the very beginning. Studying the photos honestly, weighing them visually with all of their concept, technical and composition values in relation to the challenge title and making one final decision should be the target of the voter.

Requires some work and time but also honesty against biased emotions towards one’s own entry. One also has to be strong enough emotionally to pass one’s own photo entry in favour of an other’s good work.

This challenge has no power to change the photography world officially but is a friendly ‘contest’ among the forum members, all the same. The polls that are arranged for challenges do not comprise of multiple-choice survey questions which would be suitable for polls on opinions or technical equipment, like ‘the zoom/wide-angle lenses of your choice in everyday shooting?’ or ‘which of the backpack brands do you use or prefer to carry your equipment around on a desert trip?’ .

This is a contest and at least one photo has to be better than the others for some good reason, and that requires honest analyzing.


Lonnie;

I’d never allow for 10 votes when there already are 10 entries to choose from. 9 or 8 votes or less would not be acceptable either. Why? We have to determine a winner and it has to be determined within a certain period of time. We have to learn to decide which is better or best and why.
If allowed 10 votes each for every voter when there are merely 10 photos in the contest, we may never see the end of the poll. It could go on forever to find a winner. Should each voter decide to use all of the 10 votes, we’d only be where we started in the beginning with, with no winner; 100 votes would be cast by 10 voters that consequently would have no bearing influence to determine any winner. We don’t have infinite time on our hands.
(10*10=100 votes is almost like 0-zero votes )

As Zeb says, it would be a wiser move to discuss the voting process in an other thread where many can contribute with their solutions but I believe that everyone has to grow into a maturity in photography where they can make honest decisions without straying into biased preferences.

I won’t change the rules for this challenge but the discussion can be continued in an other thread in the Challenge Section with everone’s contributions.

Thanks,

Yildiz


Nice Blog. But it STILL doesn't address the fairness issue. My point are only this.

I have no problem with allowing 1 vote for 1 photo, if all of the photos are in the same poll. That gets exactly to my point.

My problem is having multiple polls with only one vote in them. That is in no way fair, and we aren't picking the best photos, we are just picking the best photo's in each of the three polls. If you want to do it that way, then make the tough choices yourself and limit narrow down the finalists to 10 and have only one poll. All I'm looking for here is fairness, and this system ISN'T it.

If you think I don't know what I'm talking about then you need to read up on Arrow's Impossibility theorem and Independence of irrelevant alternatives.

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby Dusty » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:11 pm

People must realize that this is NOT some sort of contest with a tangible prize, just questionable bragging rights. I mean questionable in that, in the past, winners have been determined by less than 1/3 of the votes, with less than 20 people voting!

Lonnie, you take good photos, but if you put so much store on this challenge that you can't accept how it's run and decided, just don't submit them here and submit them to another site for their contests.

I've never won one, and it really doesn't matter if I do or not. It's not like it's a contest for a tangible prize, or even a recognition by an established photographic association, it's just my buds on PCA. It doesn't matter a hill of beans of if my photo loses out on round one because it was second best but in a poll section that included #1. If people like it more than the others, fine, if not, that's okay too. After all, it's all in fun here.

Remember, this is a photo challenge, not a photo contest.

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:57 pm

Dusty wrote:Remember, this is a photo challenge, not a photo contest.


Then why vote at all????? :?

Please don't be confused by my criticism here. I could care less about the "winning" aspect of this. My main concern is fairness to all that enter. Currently the way this is set up, it is not fair. Period.

In a previous life I spent a good amount of time learning and writing about statistics, voting and ranking systems. What we have here is a simply plurality voting system across multiple ballots where all entries are supposed to be equal. That is not fair, because not all photo have an equal chance of being voted on.

I'm telling everyone here, that given the limitations of the forum software here, that there are only two ways to make this fair for everyone if you have multiple polls. The first is to allow multiple votes in each poll, up to the maximum number of photos entered in the poll and the the single photo that gets the most votes across all polls "wins". That way, every photo has the same chance of being selected regardless of which of the 3 polls it is placed in. The single best photo will receive the most votes. The second is to "allow" folks to only vote on 1 image across the multiple polls. The first way controls for fraud in the voting (not that there is really anything at stake here), and the other does not (the is nothing to stop folks from just ignoring the instruction to only vote for one image in each poll).

BUT, if the idea of these things is to simply get people to get out and take and share photos based on a specific theme, then why vote at all? If we can't make it fair (based on the limitations of the forum software), then why vote? If there is no tangible prize for winning, then why vote? It seems to me that the simplest solution is to just eliminate the voting altogether.

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby [SiC] » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:01 pm

So what's the point of quarter- and semi finals and so on in sports then? And sometimes they compete over several weeks, not on the same day! Talk about unfair ;-) what if one teams best player gets ill..
One suggestion is to vote via PM then, one vote per user - but it will maybe be more work for the organiser.

/Z!
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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To ”- Voting ends No

Unread postby Lonnie Utah » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:28 pm

[SiC] wrote:So what's the point of quarter- and semi finals and so on in sports then? And sometimes they compete over several weeks, not on the same day! Talk about unfair ;-) what if one teams best player gets ill..
One suggestion is to vote via PM then, one vote per user - but it will maybe be more work for the organiser.

/Z!



You are talking about sports. These contests are about "art", which by it's very nature subjective. You provided no specific reasons on why a vote is even needed.

The vote by PM idea isn't bad with the exception that it takes away anonymity. Other than that, I can think of no negatives.

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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To Winter”-ends Nov

Unread postby pakodominguez » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:57 pm

Lonnie Utah wrote:Just a question, and something that does not seem quite fair to me. There are 3 polls, all with 1 voting option. It seems to me that depending on how photos get grouped with other photos, esp since you ask folks to vote in all three polls, that will influence the way the voting turns out. What if someone thinks that the best 3 photos are all in poll #2 (or #1 or 33)? To be fair to everyone the best way to run a split poll like this to make all three polls multiple choice polls.

I don't know if the best 3 pictures are in poll #2, but I think there are 2 outstanding pics on Poll #2 (well, 3 with my own picture... :mrgreen: ) and 2 more on poll #3 and i only voted for one on each.

I think Aster that, for the next Challenge, you can probably use Checkboxes instead and allow up to 3 answers, things won't change that much for you, and we can vote for multiple choices.

In any case, I would like to thanks Aster for all the effort she puts on this Challenges -I enjoy having a theme to work on.

regards
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Re: Challenge #43: “Autumn; From Summer To Winter”-ends Nov

Unread postby Dusty » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:12 am

pakodominguez wrote:In any case, I would like to thanks Aster for all the effort she puts on this Challenges -I enjoy having a theme to work on.

regards


Ditto that!

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