I want a pocket NEX

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bakubo
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I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by bakubo »

I often carry a DSLR when I know I will be taking photos, but I like to carry something small with me all the time in a pocket. I have used various digicams, but the sensor is small and it would be very nice to have something similar with an APS-C or 4/3 sensor.

Here we are in 2011 and I guess no one is going to make a pocket camera that is attractive to me. I don't want much and the technology all exists. There used to be tons of 35mm pocket cameras that were adequate and up until recently there were even lots of digicams with tiny sensors that were okay.

I want something that is small and pocketable. Here is all I want:

1. APS-C or 4/3 sensor.

2. Small, light, and pocketable (size of the Canon A590IS is okay and the NEX without a lens is okay).

3. Integrated EVF or OVF (not an external one that is clumsy and sticks out from the body making the whole thing awkward).

4. Non-interchangeable lens that retracts into the body so that the camera is nice and small and smooth so that it easily fits in a pocket. It can be a modest zoom with an equivalent focal length of 35-70mm f3.5-4.5 or f4-5.6. Of course, 28-85mm or 24-70mm or 28-105mm would be even better, but might be too big.

5. Image stabilization.

6. Built-in flash.

7. Reasonable price -- no more than ~$400

I don't care if it is made mostly of plastic. I don't care if it doesn't have lots of external controls. I don't care if it doesn't have a flash shoe. It would be nice to have the NEX style of tilt LCD and it would be nice to at least have exposure compensation as an external control. The Canon A590IS level of external controls would be just fine for this type of camera.
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bossel
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by bossel »

I would like that as well! I gues the problem is that a APS-C or 4/3 requires larger lenses than the usual pocket cam can offer. The NEX with the 16/2.8 is pretty small, so you could possibly also make a small 24 or 35 mm F4. No luck for small zooms, I am afraid.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by bakubo »

bossel wrote:I would like that as well! I gues the problem is that a APS-C or 4/3 requires larger lenses than the usual pocket cam can offer. The NEX with the 16/2.8 is pretty small, so you could possibly also make a small 24 or 35 mm F4. No luck for small zooms, I am afraid.
Maybe, but FF 35mm compact cameras a few years ago had all kinds of small lenses that retracted into the body. APS-C and 4/3 are smaller sensors and I suggested a rather modest 35-70mm (equivalent) f4-5.6 lens so I am not sure that it would not be possible. I spent just a few minutes searching for old 35mm and APS film compact cameras to see what lenses some of them had.

35mm compact cameras:

Leica Minilux 35-70mm Compact Camera 35-70mm f3.5-6.5
Rollei 35mm Prego 70 35-70mm f3.9-7.1
Fujifilm Tiara Zoom 28-56mm f4.5-7.5
Canon Sure Shot Mega Zoom 76 38-76mm f3.8-7.2
Canon Sure Shot Tele Max 38-70mm f3.5-6
Olympus AZ-1 Zoom 35-70mm f3.5-6.7

The following 35mm camera actually had 2 lenses (externally looked like there was just one). I still have this camera that I bought in 1989:

Olympus Infinity Twin 35mm f3.6 and 70mm f6.3 (2 builtin lenses, not a zoom)

APS film cameras (note that APS film has a crop factor of about 1.25x):

Minolta Vectis 2000 22.5-45mm f5.4-6.6
Canon IXUS II 23-46mm f4.2-5.6

I suppose that a sensor with a 1.5x, 1.6x, or 2x crop factor would have a lens that would be somewhat smaller than a FF or 1.25x crop factor sensor would need.

If a reasonable zoom really isn't possible then something like the Olympus Infinity Twin would be pretty good. I used it from 1989 to 1992 and just having 35mm and 70mm provides most of the benefit of a 35-70mm zoom.
Last edited by bakubo on Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by bakubo »

I am sure there are no technical reasons why there isn't something like this. Some may think that the lens is the stumbling block, but in my previous post I explained why I think a modest zoom for an APS-C or 4/3 pocket camera would be no problem. Maybe there will be a pocket camera one of these days, but maybe not from Sony. The problem with a pocket camera is that there are no follow-on expensive accessories that you need to make it useful. Clearly that is not something Sony would go for. I am hoping that Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic, or someone does it though.

This afternoon I was walking around again and once again wished I had a good pocket camera with me. I still have my old digicam with the tiny sensor, but it is getting long in the tooth (3 years old) and now there are even very, very few tiny sensor digicams that have some sort of VF. Having a larger sensor pocket camera would be a great replacement. I guess it was 5 or 6 years ago that I was thinking that we would have it within a year or two, but here we are in 2011 and still nothing.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

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This topic causes me to wonder how much space, depth wise, could be saved if the main LCD screen was not articulated.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by twm47099 »

I feel that this is where Canikon will first "attack" the NEX concept. In the beginning the primary advertised advantage of the NEX was improved IQ/DOF control over micro 4/3s and compact digicams in a small package. Sony said that they targeted the high IQ P&S shooter.

However, one issue about many P&S (only) photographers, is that they want small size (carry everywhere) simple camera (not interchangable lens/ dust on sensor/ separate flash). The NEX body offers small size, but once you start adding a zoom that goes away, and then you get the other issues that kept them from a DSLR Or even bridge camera in the first place (including the expense of camera plus accessories.)

I believe that the NEX concept appeals mostly to the gadget collector and the equipment fan - the person who wants to buy accessories. (That includes DSLR users who see it as a useful second camera and as a platform for their old legacy lenses.) It also appeals to those who look at cameras as jewelery (at least with the 16mm.)

But a compact APS-C digicam with a built - in retractable zoom could give P&S users (including those who folks who want to carry a P&S wherever they go) what they want. My sister is a case in point. She always carries a small bridge camera. If she could get something smaller (and APS/35mm compacts of the film era were smaller) that gave her better quality than she gets from her small sensor bridge camera, she would jump for that. But tell her that she "has to" mount a separate flash or buy extra lenses and she's not interested.

Canikon, particularly Canon, have had a number of interesting compact film cameras in the past and could make this concept work without having to go the Interchangeable lens route.

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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by Lonnie Utah »

twm47099 wrote:I believe that the NEX concept appeals mostly to the gadget collector and the equipment fan - the person who wants to buy accessories. (That includes DSLR users who see it as a useful second camera and as a platform for their old legacy lenses.) It also appeals to those who look at cameras as jewelery (at least with the 16mm.)
You might be right, but the NEX also appeals to more serious photographers like myself who, from time to time, hike, bike, climb, ski, paddle or otherwise locomote to remote areas over long distances to get "the shot". To me, in those situations, where a full sized DSLR is a hindrance, the size/weight of the nex is of serious benefit. Try lugging a heavy camera and kit over 5-10+ miles (8-20+ kM) and don't forget your tripod, water, food and other gear. The nex is more than jewelery for some of us.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by pakodominguez »

We are talking NEX system, right?
bakubo wrote: Maybe, but FF 35mm compact cameras a few years ago had all kinds of small lenses that retracted into the body. APS-C and 4/3 are smaller sensors and I suggested a rather modest 35-70mm (equivalent) f4-5.6 lens so I am not sure that it would not be possible. I spent just a few minutes searching for old 35mm and APS film compact cameras to see what lenses some of them had.

35mm compact cameras:

Leica Minilux 35-70mm Compact Camera 35-70mm f3.5-6.5
Rollei 35mm Prego 70 35-70mm f3.9-7.1
Fujifilm Tiara Zoom 28-56mm f4.5-7.5
Canon Sure Shot Mega Zoom 76 38-76mm f3.8-7.2
Canon Sure Shot Tele Max 38-70mm f3.5-6
Olympus AZ-1 Zoom 35-70mm f3.5-6.7
You are taking as example old lenses that are far from today's standards -and trends. I would like a small zoom for the NEX5, but I don't want a f4.5 lens (even if I'm thinking about the 55-200 Sony shown as mockup for the NEX system)
bakubo wrote: The following 35mm camera actually had 2 lenses (externally looked like there was just one). I still have this camera that I bought in 1989:

Olympus Infinity Twin 35mm f3.6 and 70mm f6.3 (2 builtin lenses, not a zoom)
Nice alternative, I recall playing with a camera like this, years ago. Not bad at all.

The Sigma DP1 or DP2; or the Leica X1, or the Fuji x-100 won't work for you? I know this are fixed lenses cameras, but "big size" sensor and fully pocketable.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by twm47099 »

Lonnie Utah wrote:
twm47099 wrote:I believe that the NEX concept appeals mostly to the gadget collector and the equipment fan - the person who wants to buy accessories. (That includes DSLR users who see it as a useful second camera and as a platform for their old legacy lenses.) It also appeals to those who look at cameras as jewelery (at least with the 16mm.)
You might be right, but the NEX also appeals to more serious photographers like myself who, from time to time, hike, bike, climb, ski, paddle or otherwise locomote to remote areas over long distances to get "the shot". To me, in those situations, where a full sized DSLR is a hindrance, the size/weight of the nex is of serious benefit. Try lugging a heavy camera and kit over 5-10+ miles (8-20+ kM) and don't forget your tripod, water, food and other gear. The nex is more than jewelery for some of us.
I agree - you would be included in the " DSLR users who see it as a useful second camera" which was Sony's 10% target.

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Re: I want a pocket NEX

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pakodominguez wrote:We are talking NEX system, right?
No. I really doubt Sony will be the one to make this sort of camera because it doesn't need lots of expensive accessories. Even if they did they probably wouldn't call it NEX since it wouldn't have interchangeable lenses. The size of the NEX without a lens is good though.
pakodominguez wrote: You are taking as example old lenses that are far from today's standards -and trends.
Today they can make even better lenses. Those were just examples of what they could do 15-30 years ago and an indication that with newer lens technology and smaller sensors much better lenses could be made.
pakodominguez wrote: I would like a small zoom for the NEX5, but I don't want a f4.5 lens (even if I'm thinking about the 55-200 Sony shown as mockup for the NEX system)
This thread is not about interchangeable lenses for NEX.
pakodominguez wrote: The Sigma DP1 or DP2; or the Leica X1, or the Fuji x-100 won't work for you? I know this are fixed lenses cameras, but "big size" sensor and fully pocketable.
No, they won't.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by pakodominguez »

bakubo wrote:
pakodominguez wrote:We are talking NEX system, right?
No. I really doubt Sony will be the one to make this sort of camera because it doesn't need lots of expensive accessories. Even if they did they probably wouldn't call it NEX since it wouldn't have interchangeable lenses. The size of the NEX without a lens is good though.
Since we are on the NEX forum...
pakodominguez wrote: You are taking as example old lenses that are far from today's standards -and trends.
Today they can make even better lenses. Those were just examples of what they could do 15-30 years ago and an indication that with newer lens technology and smaller sensors much better lenses could be made.[/quote]
Your problem is not better, but size. As I told you, those designs are outdated and it is not what makers and most users are asking for, so you hardly will see something similar on a new camera.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by bakubo »

twm47099 wrote:I feel that this is where Canikon will first "attack" the NEX concept. In the beginning the primary advertised advantage of the NEX was improved IQ/DOF control over micro 4/3s and compact digicams in a small package. Sony said that they targeted the high IQ P&S shooter.
I don't really care who makes it even if Crocs or Nestles makes it. :D It seems to me that there is room for NEX with interchangeable lenses, no builtin flash, no IS (except in a few lenses), no EVF/OVF, not pocketable, etc. Clearly there are many people who want exactly what the NEX has. I am hoping that someone will also make a camera sort of like what I describe though.
twm47099 wrote: However, one issue about many P&S (only) photographers, is that they want small size (carry everywhere) simple camera (not interchangable lens/ dust on sensor/ separate flash). The NEX body offers small size, but once you start adding a zoom that goes away, and then you get the other issues that kept them from a DSLR Or even bridge camera in the first place (including the expense of camera plus accessories.)
I use my DSLR a lot and don't want to get rid of it. I have just always for the last few decades also liked to have a small pocket camera to carry with me everywhere. I had an Olympus XA 30 years ago (actually, I still have it) and later various 35mm compacts. In the last decade I have had various digicams with tiny sensors. It would really be nice to have one with a somewhat larger sensor for all the obvious reasons.
twm47099 wrote: But a compact APS-C digicam with a built - in retractable zoom could give P&S users (including those who folks who want to carry a P&S wherever they go) what they want. My sister is a case in point. She always carries a small bridge camera. If she could get something smaller (and APS/35mm compacts of the film era were smaller) that gave her better quality than she gets from her small sensor bridge camera, she would jump for that. But tell her that she "has to" mount a separate flash or buy extra lenses and she's not interested.
Yes, I know lots of people who just want something that they can easily carry in a pocket or handbag, but has a bit better IQ (from the larger sensor). Lots of people on forums are only interested in the stuff that is different, has the highest specs, has the coolest techie features, etc. A whole lot of people just want a small camera that they can make good photos with though. Digicams with tiny sensors can do okay, but a larger sensor is usually preferable. See some tiny sensor photos here:

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... =17&t=4195
twm47099 wrote: Canikon, particularly Canon, have had a number of interesting compact film cameras in the past and could make this concept work without having to go the Interchangeable lens route.
This was a very common type of camera from all companies just awhile ago. Digicams with tiny sensors replaced them, but now that larger sensors with the proper functions are available at lower prices I think there is room for a few pocket APS-C or 4/3 cameras.
Last edited by bakubo on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by bakubo »

pakodominguez wrote:Since we are on the NEX forum...
Yes, you are right. Certainly Sony could do it and if they did then maybe they would put it in the NEX line. That was my initial thought anyway.
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Re: I want a pocket NEX

Unread post by Dusty »

Henry, I'd like one of those, too. And you're right, its SO do-able, but it's not today's trend.

With improved sensors that give us ISO's in the stratosphere, there's no need to have f2.8 lenses on the cameras. As you stated, with improved lens making technology and smaller than 35mm sensors, the lenses should be no problem.

Actually, if someone were the make this camera, I'd look to Kodak. Every few years they get out of the camera business, then every few years later get back into it. They may be our best bet.

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Re: I want a pocket NEX

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Dusty wrote:Henry, I'd like one of those, too. And you're right, its SO do-able, but it's not today's trend.
Yes, if no one makes it that will be the reason, not some technical difficulty, I think. We are talking about fairly simple stuff, certainly less complex than NEX. NEX has interchangeable lenses so a new mount along with all the control stuff for interchangeable lenses had to be designed and manufactured. The nice thing about pocket, non-interchangeable lens cameras is nothing has comply to some standard. Each lens, flash, etc. can be made however they want to in order to make it work with the camera. That simplifies things a lot. Basically there are no interfaces for lenses or flashes.

No matter what the trend is, I think, that there is still a market for a small pocket camera with a larger sensor. I know that many people think that mobile phone cameras and digicams (all with tiny sensors) hold almost all of that market. Maybe they are right, but I don't think so. Although lots of people use them one reason is that there aren't any other choices. Also, so many times I have had people comment to me about the relatively poor quality they get from mobile phone cameras compared to other cameras. Sure, some don't care, but lots do. Just a few years ago a pocket 35mm camera could produce very similar quality to a 35mm SLR. The sensors were exactly the same. Yes, the lenses, controls, metering, etc. were more limited, but that is a given. These are relatively simple cameras and everyone understands that.
Dusty wrote: With improved sensors that give us ISO's in the stratosphere, there's no need to have f2.8 lenses on the cameras. As you stated, with improved lens making technology and smaller than 35mm sensors, the lenses should be no problem.
Exactly!
Dusty wrote: Actually, if someone were the make this camera, I'd look to Kodak. Every few years they get out of the camera business, then every few years later get back into it. They may be our best bet.
Yes, you may very well be right. I hadn't thought about Kodak.
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