NEX FF camera rumours on SAR

[Birma]

It would be very interesting if Nikon were to bring out another FF, OMD-5-a-like, body. I expect it would be popular with the Nikon crowd and therefore perhaps puncture Sony's bubble to a degree, but it would also be an admission that there was a market for this sort of product.

4k Video? Looks like I'll be wanting a new telly!

[classiccameras]

I suspect it will be popular amongst more that just the Nikon crowd, Nikon is perceived mostly by the non photo public as a 'high end' name in the camera world and a name to have round your neck. Its the same with people who buy BMW, Mercs and Audi, its not the car they are buying its the 'badge', you can work out why they want that badge yourselves.
It all depends on price if the Sony bubble is broken or not.

[Birma]

You may be right Classic, but I'm not sure a FF, mirror-less Nikon would be aimed at the 'non photo public'.

I guess all competition is good for us consumers .

[classiccameras]

Birma, I wasn't thinking so much a FF round round the non photo publics neck, its any camera with Nikon on it.
I'm quite excited at the prospect of this new Nikon Classic, it had to come in answer to the others and although some think it might affect Sony sales, I also think Olympus may feel the pinch as well. The new Sony A7 and A7r are already [on paper] out performing the Olympus OM-D, see Ephotozine, hands on comparison. Competition seems to be hotting up but I have the feeling some one is goint to fall flat on their face along the way.

[bfitzgerald]

An FM2 type body (subject to what actually turns up) has been on the "please make" list for quite a few folks for some time, esp Nikon users.
But we shall have to see if and what turns up.

Such a body could prove popular, though I'm not willing to try Nikon again based on my own experience with the company.
As for Sony I've no idea what they are up to.

The more I look at the A7 camera the more confused I get. A7 the junior model has electronic front curtain, faster flash sync, more fps. Yet the A7r has slower fps, slower flash sync, no electronic front curtain. I don't get it..pay more get more?

The issue of the offset micro lenses or lack of on the A7 could have some pain potential for Sony...more so for rangefinder lens users but still it might impact things.
With Sony's SLT and "high end" FF strategy it more and more reminds me of Microsoft. They keep pushing Windows RT for tablets and yet everyone has dumped the platform, but they still won't be told. What's wrong with RT? Well you can't run normal windows software! (slight problem well massive problem actually) It's quite obvious Android and IOS rule to roost
Everyone told them Win 8 was not suited for desktop's and non touch devices, but they ignored them and helped bomb the pc sales for over a year!

Sony won't be told with their translucent/EVF either, stubbornly sticking to their own plan despite the market carrying on with OVF models. I'm not sure 2014 is going to be a great year for A Mount, if Sony continue to ignore the market and stick to their own tunnel vision of what cameras should be it's going to fail just as SLT's have not done that well.

[Vidgamer]

....
The more I look at the A7 camera the more confused I get. A7 the junior model has electronic front curtain, faster flash sync, more fps. Yet the A7r has slower fps, slower flash sync, no electronic front curtain. I don't get it..pay more get more?

What don't you get? The A7r has 36mp and no AA filter. That's the big attraction. If you don't need 36mp, I'd get the A7. Pretty simple, really.

I see this as similar to the Nex-6 and 7. The 6 came out later and has a number of features that the 7 doesn't have. But the 7 has more MP and a slightly different interface that may be preferable to some. Maybe it comes down to that they cannot put some of the features into the highest-MP sensors? Also, pushing more data has got to mean slower FPS rates at these high-MP sizes.

The issue of the offset micro lenses or lack of on the A7 could have some pain potential for Sony...more so for rangefinder lens users but still it might impact things.
With Sony's SLT and "high end" FF strategy it more and more reminds me of Microsoft. They keep pushing Windows RT for tablets and yet everyone has dumped the platform, but they still won't be told. What's wrong with RT? Well you can't run normal windows software! (slight problem well massive problem actually) It's quite obvious Android and IOS rule to roost
Everyone told them Win 8 was not suited for desktop's and non touch devices, but they ignored them and helped bomb the pc sales for over a year!

iOS and Android don't run Windows software either! So, why wouldn't Microsoft think that the RT would be fine for people? The problem is that iOS and Android have had a big head start, and most people who wanted tablets have probably already bought into a system. Tough to break in-- you have to have something compelling, not just be just-like-Apple.

Sony won't be told with their translucent/EVF either, stubbornly sticking to their own plan despite the market carrying on with OVF models. I'm not sure 2014 is going to be a great year for A Mount, if Sony continue to ignore the market and stick to their own tunnel vision of what cameras should be it's going to fail just as SLT's have not done that well.

If DSLR die-hards didn't get the message with the SLT cameras, maybe they'll get the hint now that Sony's going mirrorless! My personal issue with the SLTs is the light loss -- going full mirrorless will fix that.

I think the A7 is going to be pretty popular, but still a niche at these prices.

While I like OVFs, unless you have a high-end DSLR, they vary in quality. EVF has issues, but with focus peaking and focus magnification -- especially the magnification -- I don't think I can go back to OVF. The last time I tried using an OVF, I kept wishing for the focus magnification to kick in, given my poor eyesight.

[bfitzgerald]

I'm talking about SAR and this "higher end sports camera" rumour.
Honestly, if you polled 100 serious sports shooters (pro or big spenders take your pick) if you got one or two that would even pick up an EVF camera for sports you'd be lucky.

Let alone get one to actually buy the product. Even if Sony did some crazy beast that shot 15fps or higher, with a massive buffer. It's a complete non starter for this type of shooter. And anyway, many are heavily invested in Canon glass. And erm Sony just don't have the lenses to support hardened sports shooters, not even close to it.


“More cameras on the way On the press meeting Yoshiyuki Nogama told us that a video-targeted system camera with A-mount is on the way/being developed. It shall compete with Canon EOS 5D Mk III and will have Ultra HD video (4K). We guess that this is a continuation of Sony a99. The Sony director also told us that further ahead Sony will launch a really fast full frame camera for action photography,”

Video wise maybe they will have more luck there, though I've yet to find a Sony that actually took really good video (passable video yes but not great A99 was far from amazing here)

As for the 5dMkIII it's "Sony fantasy league" as I call it, they have 0 chance of effectively competing with such a model, just having a really good fps is not enough on it's own.
You have to make a product that fits "the needs of users", not try to shove some Electronic viewfinder onto people who simply won't entertain it. Sony really need to start listening a lot more. Not about if I prefer OVF's (quite clear I do overall for a number of reasons) it's about this type of buyer and Sony will just waste more time, money and resources trying to sell a product that is doomed to fail before it even hits a shop.

If Sony have any sense and insist on spreading their EVF gospel, at least make something that's far cheaper than other makers and actually gives people are "reason" to consider an EVF even if they are not crazy about them. EVF's at OVF DSLR prices is a failure, and until Sony work that out they're wasting their time.

A mount does not need another £2000+ FF body that nobody will buy.

[Birma]

Hey Barry, how about the cheapest FF 36 mp camera?

[Vidgamer]

Hey Barry, how about the cheapest FF 36 mp camera?

That's gotta count for something.

My question to Barry is, what would you do if you were in control at Sony? It's not like they can just compete head-on with another me-too DSLR and make huge pro zooms. Well, I guess they do have a few, but not quite the variety of monster zooms like Canikon.

I think their strategy of a small FF that can take the place of a DSLR is a good one.

You may be correct that dedicated sports shooters will not be interested in the A7, but I think they haven't been interested in Sony for the most part anyway. Sony might as well make the camera that the pros want when they're not at their pro-job.

[Wes Gibbon]

I believe SAR reported an interview with a Sony guy who said they were hoping to release a camera body for sports photographers. That might have been more to keep investors happy than be a true reflection of their intentions.

There remains the possibility that if they can speed up the EVF even more then mirrorless and SLT cameras could outperform OVF SLR's because there is no return mirror delay. Maybe a big if but Sony EVF technology has advanced impressively since it was first released, although some people have an almost religious belief that it can never outperform an OVF.

SAR has reported 'probable' rumours about a flurry of new camera bodies next year, in all formats. There doesn't, alas, appear to be comparable news about lenses, the lack of which is what is most discouraging for the more serious Sony photogrphers.

[bfitzgerald]

I think their strategy of a small FF that can take the place of a DSLR is a good one

It is..but only in a limited way.
Sony will be able to shift some bodies to people even with investments in other mounts/lenses.
The problem is because you can fit lots of other lenses, there is basically not much incentive to make a big commitment to the E mount lens line.

Even less so looking at the size/price of some of the lenses. I'm not saying they won't sell any E mount FF lenses, but they will not sell big numbers in the same way DSLR systems do.

And long term that is a flawed strategy.
Why do you think every DSLR maker has their own mount? That's where they make the money mostly
Take that away and you are left with a paper tiger strategy.

If Sony's plan is to go E mount full on, they're in for a disappointment long term because it can't effectively be a proper alternative to the DSLR systems. It's an ok idea on it's own but it's probably not wise to invest in trying to build up a big lens range for E mount. And let's be honest they've not got the best range even on APS-C E mount and they've had years to do that.

I don't "hate" E mount, I just think Sony are too scared to go head to head with the big guys. And yes they can effectively compete "if" they actually woke up to some of the advantages A mount can offer. Sony have never exploited the advantages of IBIS, they've not developed the flash system to where it should be, they still have some serious gaps in the lens range too. As well as bad support with firmware which gets users backs up (constant complaints on SAR about firmware)

What would I do. Sort that out first..
And yes I think users should have something to use OVF wise, and I'm 100% convinced any kind of EVF sports camera is doomed to fail because I talk to sports shooters, and they will not buy an EVF camera for this type of work.

As I said before the only way to get SLT/EVF traction in the market is to offer a price incentive. Sony took the guts of the A77, shoved a FF sensor in there and charged a stupidly high price, even now the A99 is £1850 try £500 less if not more. How on earth Sony can be so out of touch is beyond me.
People might look at EVF, but they're not going to pay "more than OVF" models to get there.

And if Sony have yet to work that out, then they really are stupid!

Canikon have an easy stick to beat Sony with, they'll just price them off the market and it will work no problems at all.

[Vidgamer]

I think their strategy of a small FF that can take the place of a DSLR is a good one

It is..but only in a limited way.
Sony will be able to shift some bodies to people even with investments in other mounts/lenses.

Shift and augment. It doesn't have to be a full system replacement, but maybe for some it will be.

The problem is because you can fit lots of other lenses, there is basically not much incentive to make a big commitment to the E mount lens line.

Even less so looking at the size/price of some of the lenses. I'm not saying they won't sell any E mount FF lenses, but they will not sell big numbers in the same way DSLR systems do.

And long term that is a flawed strategy.
Why do you think every DSLR maker has their own mount? That's where they make the money mostly
Take that away and you are left with a paper tiger strategy.

I used an A100 for years, and I bought zero (0) Sony branded lenses. I found everything I needed in Tamron and old Minolta (used) lenses. Was that a good strategy for them? Not in my case.

For the Nex, I've bought a couple of Sony lenses, and at their inflated prices.

The problem is that not everyone likes the Nex body style.

If Sony's plan is to go E mount full on, they're in for a disappointment long term because it can't effectively be a proper alternative to the DSLR systems. It's an ok idea on it's own but it's probably not wise to invest in trying to build up a big lens range for E mount. And let's be honest they've not got the best range even on APS-C E mount and they've had years to do that.

I recall similar comments from those owning A-mount. Look, Sony isn't going to out-produce Canikon in lens production. To go after a niche and perhaps steal some sales along the way sounds like a more sound idea.

They've had years to do the A mount and couldn't punch through.

As far as EVF vs. OVF, I recently looked through my friend's Canon, and immediately missed the focus magnification. It's weird how you get used to that!

I don't "hate" E mount, I just think Sony are too scared to go head to head with the big guys. And yes they can effectively compete "if" they actually woke up to some of the advantages A mount can offer. Sony have never exploited the advantages of IBIS, they've not developed the flash system to where it should be, they still have some serious gaps in the lens range too. As well as bad support with firmware which gets users backs up (constant complaints on SAR about firmware)

What would I do. Sort that out first..
And yes I think users should have something to use OVF wise, and I'm 100% convinced any kind of EVF sports camera is doomed to fail because I talk to sports shooters, and they will not buy an EVF camera for this type of work.

As I said before the only way to get SLT/EVF traction in the market is to offer a price incentive. Sony took the guts of the A77, shoved a FF sensor in there and charged a stupidly high price, even now the A99 is £1850 try £500 less if not more. How on earth Sony can be so out of touch is beyond me.
People might look at EVF, but they're not going to pay "more than OVF" models to get there.

And if Sony have yet to work that out, then they really are stupid!

Canikon have an easy stick to beat Sony with, they'll just price them off the market and it will work no problems at all.

[bfitzgerald]

I'm sure the big makers have statistics on this.
xyz % of people will buy nothing just a DSLR and kit lens
another % will buy some stuff
xyz % will maybe upgrade every so often body wise
And another % will go full on and build up a fairly meaty system
xyz % will buy mainly third party offerings (lenses/flashes) or s/h stuff or a mix of all ie some OEM some third party, some s/h

Speaking from my own experience and talking to others..a fairly high % of people will only buy original branded products flashes or lenses take your pick.
I'm much more open to third party offerings in both segments, but a lot of people are not. I found that out the hard way when I took a bath on the Nikon fit Metz flash I sold.

Nikon will sell way more own brand SB700's than third party makers, despite the fact makers like Metz actually have a much nicer more powerful flash than that model for only a bit more outlay. That's down to marketing..and it works

Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens Canikon land, this new FM2 type retro body we'll see how that does and how crazy the price is!
I expect something else to turn up shortly FF wise, and I expect the 6d to fall in price too.

What worries some is Sony's lack of attention to APS-C A mount, they've run the A77/65 combo for long enough, the A58 isn't blowing people away either. Canikon will wipe them out for APS-C DSLR's this Christmas with cashbacks all over the place.

As for focus magnify yes it's good, but so is being able to see your subject outdoors in contrasty light! Sony jumped far too early on the EVF bandwagon, but ore importantly it's made no difference to their fortunes with A mount, that alone tells us how little it matters to most people.

[Wes Gibbon]

As for focus magnify yes it's good, but so is being able to see your subject outdoors in contrasty light! Sony jumped far too early on the EVF bandwagon, but ore importantly it's made no difference to their fortunes with A mount, that alone tells us how little it matters to most people.

You do need to adjust your way of working with an EVF. If necessary, evaluate the scene without looking through the camera, then use the EVF for framing, adjusting focus and evaluating depth-of-field. When Sony first came out with EVF-only cameras I felt they were rather disappointing. With my newly-acquired NEX7 I would say it is now more swings and roundabouts - there is still some delay compared with an OVF (there always will be at least a theoretic delay) but this is balanced by the advantages, and EVF's are improving all the time. The contrast problem you mention may be gone in the A7 or models rumoured for next year.

Despite the above, for FF I'm going to stick with my A900 and it's excellent OVF for a while yet.

[bakubo]

Barry, see these posts with regards to using an EVF in contrasty situations:

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... 20&#p82006

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... =30#p81988