FF announced

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Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread postby Vidgamer » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:38 pm

bfitzgerald wrote:salesman (plural salesmen)
A man whose job it is to sell things, either in a shop / store or elsewhere.


I took Pako's discussion with sales to mean that the sensor/processing was improved over prior Sony cameras. Both he and Artington were clearly speaking of upgrading from the Nex-7. I reread their messages to be sure, and it still sounds that way. You could compare the A7 or A7r against the Nex-7 or other Nex cameras and see what's better, but you changed the discussion to compare against the top-of-the-line (and larger and more expensive) Nikon... and the A7r still compares well.

No one was saying that the A7r was beating the 800e, but then, they are close enough using the charts that you yourself posted that it really doesn't matter which you choose (at least purely on IQ).

alphaomega
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Re: FF announced

Unread postby alphaomega » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:01 pm

Not sure DxO marks have anything to do with what the Sony salesman was trying to convey.
The new cameras share a powerful new BIONZ X processor that accurately reproduces details in textures in real-time via extra high-speed processing capabilities, and allows for exceptional low noise performance in all types of lighting conditions. Additionally, the powerful processor combined with the advanced, high resolution sensors allow both cameras to shoot pro-quality Full HD video (AVCHD progressive, 1920x1080p @ 60p) with richly detailed colors and ultra-low noise.
from the Sony Press Release.
These improvements may be real but not really affecting things like DR or colour depth as measured by DXO, but then I am not a tech. expert. With regards to ISO performance I refer to David Kilpatrick's previous articles on this issue and why Nikon appeared to have better ISO performance with the same Sony sensor.
I would agree that if you don't normally pay any heed to DxO results, you should not haul them out when it suits an argument. They are either reliable or not. This is not a forum for laywers.

Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread postby Vidgamer » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:07 pm

alphaomega wrote:I subscribe to Classiccameras' view
Unless your desperate to change your system or are wondering which direction to take with all these new Sony cameras, or even jump ship, it may be wise to all go on 'hold' for a while to see what Sony have to offer in 'A' mount. You never know, we might all be surprised or very disappointed. I'm sure for me at least I can make a more informed decision when all the [new] cards are on the table.

I see no immediate need to change and find all the exalted discussions about new cameras rather esoteric.


I think whether or not it's esoteric depends on what you're looking for. If you're just chasing after the "new shiny", then it's a bit wasteful. A certain amount of the excitement is something new, better features, etc.

It wasn't such an esoteric idea when I was looking for a larger-sensor-in-a-small-package camera years ago. Now that we have so many alternatives, maybe it's more esoteric in that similar cameras exist that may be good enough, but I can still see the attraction of getting a FF sensor in such a small body. But if you're a happy a-mount shooter, I'm not sure that a conversion to A7 is interesting or necessarily "better", provided you are happy carrying around the larger camera.

Fact is that good pictures have been generated for decades and it is the person behind the viewfinder that matters.


Both the camera and the photographer matters. Good pictures were generated for decades using film. I liked the immediacy of digital, but in some situations, film worked better, at least until digital got better. Now with all of the pixel peeping, it seems a bit overkill. Now, you can start to make the argument that the camera doesn't matter, which is probably the case until people start to use the camera at the extremes -- shooting lower light than they every would have before, printing larger than before, etc. It is kind of fun to have the extra capability.

My RX100 does what I need for "walk about". My NEX-6 & 5N with mainly Sony E zooms does for a day out without breaking the back and my A580/550 do the job with Sony/Tamron lenses when needing fast shooting.


Unfortunately, when I needed the RX100 was about 7 years ago.... If it was available then, maybe I wouldn't have felt a need to get into DSLRs and Nex.

As it is today, the RX100 is about the same price as the Nex, and rather than try to pay for/support multiple camera systems, I'm trying to focus on the Nex.

We have an HX5V for P&S use, as well as the iPhone. These are OK for most casual use. Were money no object, I'd pick up an RX100 (or similar high-quality camera). If it's really all about the photographer and not the camera, why not just use the HX5V? Well, it clearly struggles in low light and has overpowering, smeary noise reduction. But in a pinch, it goes into any pocket, and you just can't beat the convenience.

I have a video set-up with NEX-6/LA-EA2/Sony 18-250 and the new ECM-XYST1M microphone that provides excellent sound, good zoom reach and AF. You can do what you wish to do with Sony equipment (or most other makes). The only Sony offer that could tempt me would be a well priced combo of an updated NEX-6 with say 20Mp sensor and an improved EVF for sunny conditions coupled with the new 16-70 E zoom. I would then sell my NEX-5N.


There's not a lot they can tempt me with right now, as my Nex-6 is still pretty new. Perhaps that's part of why you find discussions of new cameras "esoteric"? I can say that I find the discussion and reviews of the A7 and A7r interesting, and I'm happy for people who are excited about them, even as I'm not (too) tempted to get one.

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Re: FF announced

Unread postby alphaomega » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Vidgamer, I was really writing from my own position of having a strong front line of RX100, NEX-6 and A580 going up the sizes to cover all eventualities. There comes a point for some that what we have is good enough for what we want to do. I have reached that point and the emphasis is now on composition and lighting rather than new technology. I have made the point elsewhere that I think the A7/7r are good products for Sony and they will sell. There are people constantly striving for technical perfection or new photo opportunities. That is their right. I might even defy my own better judgement and purchase a replacement for my NEX-5N if Sony comes up with an attractive proposition such as a NEX-6 or 7 replacement coupled with the new 16-70 E zoom. I don't actually need it but could afford it.

Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread postby Vidgamer » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:18 am

Yeah, we all have our limits where we just have to say that that's enough equipment, let's go out and take some photos already! I do like the equipment talk, but I try to not go too crazy with the actual purchases. :)

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bfitzgerald
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Re: FF announced

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:44 am

If I were honest one body 3 lenses and a flash would cover 95% of what I need to do.
But like most we tend to acquire items that we don't necessarily need, but would like. Or stuff that isn't used often but is useful at times.

Onto the processing, soon as I saw A7/A7r I instantly thought same IQ as the D600 and D800/e
I'd be surprised if the processing makes much difference or that Sony's processor is much different to Nikon

I have an AMD desktop CPU, the design is different to the Intel ones, with some advantages and downsides too. Bottom line is despite being different designs (significantly) they both do the same thing ie process data :mrgreen:
Maybe some differences will come to light, but I suppose we shall have to wait and see. I remember Sony marketing in the past, A100 "low noise" yeah right :roll:

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Re: FF announced

Unread postby Neonsquare » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:17 pm

bfitzgerald wrote:I'd be surprised if the processing makes much difference or that Sony's processor is much different to Nikon


I'm really curious about your... "argument". For years people tell that Nikons processing gets out more from Sonys sensors. Now it seems Sonys processing seems to be improved greatly and you argue, that "processing" never made a difference? :lol:

bfitzgerald wrote:I have an AMD desktop CPU, the design is different to the Intel ones, with some advantages and downsides too. Bottom line is despite being different designs (significantly) they both do the same thing ie process data :mrgreen:


Thats a naive comparison. Both CPUs speak the same language and the results should be - by definition - the same. This is not the case with image processing. The improvement in Sonys processing doesn't come from Bionz X getting faster, but Bionz X getting faster allowed improved algorithms resulting in better quality. DxO doesn't measure resolution or better detail reproduction. The measurements of DxO are coarse enough that you may actually see differences of about 1 stop between cameras. But even then - such measurement doesn't tell the whole story. The A77 is measured being better than the RX100II, this is actually true, but I have to really work to get this quality out of the A77 RAW while it is quite easy to get it from RX100II. My guess is that Sony switched to the "Nikon way" of RAW and just deliver cooked but good data instead of the "more raw" results of earlier cams.

Vidgamer
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Re: FF announced

Unread postby Vidgamer » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:06 pm

bfitzgerald wrote:If I were honest one body 3 lenses and a flash would cover 95% of what I need to do.
But like most we tend to acquire items that we don't necessarily need, but would like. Or stuff that isn't used often but is useful at times.

Onto the processing, soon as I saw A7/A7r I instantly thought same IQ as the D600 and D800/e
I'd be surprised if the processing makes much difference or that Sony's processor is much different to Nikon

I have an AMD desktop CPU, the design is different to the Intel ones, with some advantages and downsides too. Bottom line is despite being different designs (significantly) they both do the same thing ie process data :mrgreen:
Maybe some differences will come to light, but I suppose we shall have to wait and see. I remember Sony marketing in the past, A100 "low noise" yeah right :roll:


I found this marketing doc:
https://docs.sony.com/release/specs/dslra100_mksp.pdf

I don't see where it claims to be a low noise monster. It was Sony's first DSLR, and thus would have less noise than their other cameras that had smaller sensors, so claiming that APS-C had a noise advantage still would have a bit of validity.

I do recall many reviews pointing out that it was noisier than other DSLRs at ISO 800 and above, which is probably right. However, the noise wasn't THAT bad, and at low ISOs, it really was great. Having said that, I tried to not use ISO 1600 if I could help it, so sometimes it was limiting. Now, I use ISO 3200 when needed.

Anyway, it seemed to be common knowledge that the A100 was a bit more noisy than other similar cameras, but I bought one anyway. It just seemed like a better overall value. Eventually I realized that with a bit of NR, particularly using RAW, you could still preserve details and get a decent 8x10 even at ISO 1600. Even with the Nex, you're better off using RAW.

As far as CPUs were concerned, sometimes one brand was noticeably better than the other while doing "the same thing". What's your point, that the D800 is not much different than the A7? Perhaps, but again, that wasn't the ongoing discussion. But it sounds like a good thing for Sony, so I'll give you credit for that. :lol:

Neon: I also had read that Sony might use better color filters, but that could reduce light and make a slightly noisier result. If this were true, it could be a fair tradeoff. Some Sony cameras do tend to measure close to accurate, at least the couple of charts I looked at in the past.


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