A7 crippled sensor?

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classiccameras
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by classiccameras »

I wonder if other user groups such as Canon and Nikon forums have the same degree of complaint or criticism about their products. If it wasn't for the IBIS issue, I would have joined the Canon club.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

classiccameras wrote:I wonder if other user groups such as Canon and Nikon forums have the same degree of complaint or criticism about their products. If it wasn't for the IBIS issue, I would have joined the Canon club.
To a degree they do. It wouldn't hurt Sony to actually address some of the quirks with a firmware update, but as per Sony they will just ignore the problems. Sometimes they just don't get it or the value in looking after customers.

By far the most annoying is the lack of flash ready indicator in the viewfinder in all but a couple of viewing modes, this is really basic simple stuff.
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:I've been fairly harsh on Sony for some time now, I won't deny that. But I've also seen some fairly obvious mistakes in the past from them that's made me question their ability to tune into different types of users.

I don't doubt for one moment Sony are quite capable of making decent cameras, and good lenses.
But you don't think they have? Not sure what you're getting at here. Or, do you feel that they fail to make complete systems, just decent cameras and good lenses? If it's the latter, then I think that's a fair enough observation, but there's more to it than just wishing for more lenses, etc.
Reading the IR interview didn't really shed much light bar the push on NEX seemingly as a response to the increasing use of smart phones by many users. But I've long held the view average DSLR user or photo enthusiast isn't going to use a smart phone for much of their shooting (bar the odd shots here and there and the convenience aspect) I never really saw smarthphones as a threat to some types of cameras, bar mostly the compact sector.
It sounds like you're saying that Sony wants to replace DSLRs with QX smartphone lenses. I don't think that's the target market.

It's pretty clear that smartphones are killing the low-end camera market... and why not?
Sony are basically saying NEX is a sort of make it smaller option for people who are more serious or want better phone beating IQ.
You mean, DSLR-equalling IQ. :-D
The problem is smart phones have that instant connectivity wifi, though the network etc that people like. They are basically small computers/tablets with a camera. And for some people average Joe etc their images and videos are just fine for facebook or whatever they do with them. That's the "good enough" aspect coming into play.
This is true. People get to choose their level of quality. Do they want cellphone quality or DSLR quality?

Meanwhile, at least Sony recognizes the advantages of Wifi and being able to instantly upload. I've already used the Wifi upload on my Nex-6 on a couple of occasions. The only thing I'm missing is uploading from the camera over the phone network... except that I can kind of do that too, using Sony's iPhone app., but with an extra step in the workflow.
I don't think Sony have really understood the needs of the hard core of photographers who are quite serious about their shooting, either as a hobby, doing some work or even full on pro level shooters. There is quite a range of users there, but they are basically the same people who were using "more serious" stuff back in 35mm days. Biggest problem for me is Sony seem very narrow minded about what xyz users want. I think they class almost everyone as a consumer type photographer, and don't seem to quite understand what users like myself are looking for. They seem somewhat obsessed with "doing something different/unique"

I have news, cameras are boring..they just take pictures. I don't really need unique, I'm looking for reliable, well designed, with good logical handling and not lots of gimmicks or flaws that should be ironed out before a product hits the shelves. I'm not going to just buy something because it's different, that's not enough no party tricks impress me, but being consistent does longer term.
Some of those that just want boring old-school 35mm cameras will enjoy putting manual lenses on the A7. But, if the Sony doesn't do anything for you, I would say, don't buy it. That's the ultimate choice -- how you spend your money.

I don't want to say that I don't care what pros want, but I read a lot about large cameras and huge f2.8 zooms, and I'm not interested. I want a compact camera that produces high-quality photos. Sony made that, not the other brands. The other brands have smaller sensors or other limitations and are fine cameras in many ways, but in the case of Canikon, they seem careful not to compete with their DSLR line.
I also strongly disagree with the idea that Sony should not try to compete with the top 2, products like the A7 despite being different cannot avoid a clash with Canikon in FF, it's down to the users to decide what they are looking for. After reading the interview I'm still of the view Sony are not tuned into non consumer shooters very well, and they don't appear to be willing to take on board what many users are saying.
Sony has tried to compete head-on with the A-mount, and Minolta before it. It just costs too much money to build a "complete" system with T/S lenses and everything, and pros will continue to complain unless every obscure lens and accessory is available. So, maybe the bottom line is, Sony just doesn't have the money or infrastructure to compete at that level. Canikon can do it because they have a huge installed base and cash cows.

What Sony can do is approach the situation using the business tactic of "disruption", perhaps even discovering new markets. I appreciate some of the interesting, innovative things they've been trying.
As for the A7, it's a body only solution to some people. If you have xyz no. of A mount or other mount lenses there is little point investing in FE mount lenses that cannot be used on your other bodies, either you just use the body with adaptors (and I suspect most will do that) or you dump your DSLR stuff and move 100% to E mount, and currently I can't see that as a viable option at the moment due to so few lenses. I'm not actually against the idea of other concepts and cameras, but I do think Sony have not inspired confidence in how they have handled A mount over the years, some good moments, but probably more bad ones. I wouldn't be very confident in how Sony handle E mount based on that. I still think to this day it's few small people driving this direction from Sony, and they have the blinkers on and can't see the views of many of their users.
If you want security and a DSLR, go with Canikon. Seems pretty straightforward. Although, I'm not sure I would trust them with mirrorless. My problem is that Canikon consistently won't make the camera I would prefer.

Even with DSLRs, Sony would give more bang-for-the-buck, as far as I could tell, particularly when I could buy used Minolta lenses. Really, Sony made very little money from me on the DSLR sale! I didn't buy any Sony-branded lenses. For the Nex, I've bought a couple. Which one was a smarter business move for them? I guess that depends on who their customers are.

As long as they can make money off of these niche markets, then they'll keep making cameras.
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by classiccameras »

Reading all these very interesting comments and ideas about Sony makes me think that a good alternative would be to go ILC M/4/3. They don't seem to be having the same level of complaint or critisism on their forums.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

They'll keep making cameras, but are they making what people want/like?
I get the smartphone take, but that's only really for compacts (the lower end ones) I understand people want a small do it all device. I bought a windows smartphone (nokia) as a gift and had a play. It's quite good really (win 8 sucks on desktops but works well for touch devices) for her needs she can do what she wants (facebook, email) and take the odd photo.

She doesn't want a camera because she isn't interested in photography! I am
The cameras on smartphones range from passable at the lower end for web and maybe ok for a small print, to quite good ie normal compact quality at the top end. But none of this has any real bearing on DSLR's or products similar to that. I don't really see smart phones hurting premium compacts either, they do offer better IQ and the prices are not bad on some (ie £300 and under) I'd probably get better images off my F70exr than most smartphones

Sony are basically saying NEX was created to fend of smart phones ie bigger sensor better IQ. But that is only sensible if they intend to use ILC's to "partly replace" compacts. To a degree some makers are doing this.
I see loads of Nikon 1's on blow out sales to clear stock (and prices are low) the odd Samsung being shoved out the door at a silly price. Same for Panasonic.
What this tells me is ILC's are not selling that well and are being price reduced to get rid of stock.

You can if you are prudent, and shop around pick up an ILC for less than a mid level compact and get quite a deal. But buying a blow out Nikon 1 at £199..likely never to change the lens doesn't stand too well for Nikon longer term, or any other maker who shifts these ILC's at knock down prices. They're knock down prices for a reason! (ie not selling well)

So other than ILC budget stuff replacing compacts I don't get Sony's take here.
As for A mount..and picking up a NEX. Fine, but I won't be buying NEX lenses for one obvious reason, I can't use them on A mount!

Pick up an E Mount body (even the cheapest out there) + adaptor well you've just paid more than a budget DSLR straight off. And yes no IBIS, no VF On the budget ones, adaptor won't AF with screw drive lenses unless you buy the bulkier more expensive SLT one. I don't rule out picking up a budget ILC at some point, but it's going to be to replace a compact, and not the DSLR's.

As for Sony and A mount. You have to beef it up.
Sort out those mid priced more f4 zooms that are not there. Offer those f1.8 primes that are not crazy Zeiss expensive. Lens range needs work, no question
Sony could and should have updated the flash, full off camera flash control "via the body", how about radio flash build into the body itself? And I've said before there is no real appeal for new users with Sony because their own lenses are not better priced than Canikon, thus wasting the potential pull of IBIS.

You have to move things forward not stand still. As for tilt shift fairly small market for that, Sony have to nail down the other stuff first.
A mount makes sense for the budget shooter buying s/h Minolta and Tamron glass, you can build a system for peanuts really (well quite a bit less than Canikon) and have IBIS and that's the only reason I'm here :mrgreen:

Sony don't actually make money off of me, because I don't really buy Sony lenses, because there is no real reason to. :shock:
I'm probably not alone in that either.

Put yourself in new user shoes, no system no legacy wanting to buy a camera.
There isn't really a great reason to pick A mount, because Sony don't understand how to appeal to users. That's their own fault they've had plenty of time to get on top of things. SLT changed nothing for Sony, they can try as many tricks and technology as they want it won't work. You have to give people a reason to be here, and bar the bargain hunter shooter..I can't really think of any.
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

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classiccameras wrote:Reading all these very interesting comments and ideas about Sony makes me think that a good alternative would be to go ILC M/4/3. They don't seem to be having the same level of complaint or critisism on their forums.
By "level of complaint" do you mean Barry? :D

He's the biggest Sony/Minolta fan here. He's been shooting professionally (i.e. making money at it) with A mount longer than I've known my f-stop from my shutter speed. Just look at the column inches he invests in trying to make A mount go where he wants.

Criticism is the spark that leads to improvement. :)
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Well it's probably effort wasted. Anyway I think it's a shame as things could be quite different.
Yes I do make money from photography, but I'm not driving a Mercedes either so it might be more productive to concentrate on that side of things!

I will say though the gear has made little difference, I'm using fairly modest stuff by most folks standards, and so far I've mostly been able to work around the annoyances. Have to say there are irritating things with other mounts too. It would be nice if Sony did listen just a little bit at times.

Everyone else is using Canon mostly, and despite liking the 70d I'm really not into Canon at this time.
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by Vidgamer »

Birma wrote:....

Criticism is the spark that leads to improvement. :)
Either that, or it convinces users or potential users to give up on the brand. :|
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:They'll keep making cameras, but are they making what people want/like?
Someone is buying their cameras. If it's not what they want, then those are confused buyers, but Sony would be successful anyway. Really, if Sony is that poor at making what people want, they would go out of business.

My observation is that they are making what many people want, but perhaps not for pros so much. I can live with that. :lol:
I get the smartphone take, but that's only really for compacts (the lower end ones) I understand people want a small do it all device. I bought a windows smartphone (nokia) as a gift and had a play. It's quite good really (win 8 sucks on desktops but works well for touch devices) for her needs she can do what she wants (facebook, email) and take the odd photo.

She doesn't want a camera because she isn't interested in photography! I am
The cameras on smartphones range from passable at the lower end for web and maybe ok for a small print, to quite good ie normal compact quality at the top end. But none of this has any real bearing on DSLR's or products similar to that. I don't really see smart phones hurting premium compacts either, they do offer better IQ and the prices are not bad on some (ie £300 and under) I'd probably get better images off my F70exr than most smartphones
Premium compacts might seem safe, but if you can get a Nex or m43 for near the same price, that's a tough decision for the enthusiast. A lot of people who might have been in the market for a reasonable compact won't bother. I don't think anyone has claimed that DSLR sales are impacted by cellphones. Compact cameras are getting pressure from both ends.
Sony are basically saying NEX was created to fend of smart phones ie bigger sensor better IQ. But that is only sensible if they intend to use ILC's to "partly replace" compacts. To a degree some makers are doing this.
I see loads of Nikon 1's on blow out sales to clear stock (and prices are low) the odd Samsung being shoved out the door at a silly price. Same for Panasonic.
What this tells me is ILC's are not selling that well and are being price reduced to get rid of stock.

You can if you are prudent, and shop around pick up an ILC for less than a mid level compact and get quite a deal. But buying a blow out Nikon 1 at £199..likely never to change the lens doesn't stand too well for Nikon longer term, or any other maker who shifts these ILC's at knock down prices. They're knock down prices for a reason! (ie not selling well)

So other than ILC budget stuff replacing compacts I don't get Sony's take here.
I am not aware of any fire sales for Nex cameras, unless they are older models.

IMO, Canikon ILCs are not selling well because they aren't as good as they should be. I think this is by design - can't affect the cash cow, you know.
As for A mount..and picking up a NEX. Fine, but I won't be buying NEX lenses for one obvious reason, I can't use them on A mount!

Pick up an E Mount body (even the cheapest out there) + adaptor well you've just paid more than a budget DSLR straight off. And yes no IBIS, no VF On the budget ones, adaptor won't AF with screw drive lenses unless you buy the bulkier more expensive SLT one. I don't rule out picking up a budget ILC at some point, but it's going to be to replace a compact, and not the DSLR's.
Sounds ok to me! You can just use the kit lens for most things. I wouldn't recommend replacing a DSLR with a Nex, but if you have a Nex, it's nice to have options.
As for Sony and A mount. You have to beef it up.
Sort out those mid priced more f4 zooms that are not there. Offer those f1.8 primes that are not crazy Zeiss expensive. Lens range needs work, no question
Sony could and should have updated the flash, full off camera flash control "via the body", how about radio flash build into the body itself? And I've said before there is no real appeal for new users with Sony because their own lenses are not better priced than Canikon, thus wasting the potential pull of IBIS.

You have to move things forward not stand still. As for tilt shift fairly small market for that, Sony have to nail down the other stuff first.
A mount makes sense for the budget shooter buying s/h Minolta and Tamron glass, you can build a system for peanuts really (well quite a bit less than Canikon) and have IBIS and that's the only reason I'm here :mrgreen:
Me too. Tamron and Minolta lenses are great! Really opens the options.

I think a lot of items are probably low volume and would be hard to make profitably.
Sony don't actually make money off of me, because I don't really buy Sony lenses, because there is no real reason to. :shock:
I'm probably not alone in that either.

Put yourself in new user shoes, no system no legacy wanting to buy a camera.
There isn't really a great reason to pick A mount, because Sony don't understand how to appeal to users. That's their own fault they've had plenty of time to get on top of things. SLT changed nothing for Sony, they can try as many tricks and technology as they want it won't work. You have to give people a reason to be here, and bar the bargain hunter shooter..I can't really think of any.
I have family members who bought Canon. They didn't care that I like Sony, they go with a major brand that they associate with pros, even though they are modest enthusiasts. I don't know how Sony gets past that.
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by peterottaway »

But something is definitely rotten with Sony in Europe. I was just doing a little browsing in Amazon and came across the A7 for GBP 1549 when it is on sale in Australia for AUD 1799 when the Amazon price equates to almost AUD 3000.

Now ok sales taxes are different and you get paid in Pounds or Euros but no way would I pay that much. The Australian Dollar is being talked down by the Reserve Bank at the moment so these cameras were probably paid for at a higher rate to the Yen but still !
classiccameras
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by classiccameras »

I think many buyers especially first time DSLR buyers are buying the 'badge' when it comes to Nikon and Canon.
When I bought my first Sony, an A37, it was not for the badge but what specs it had and how it felt, with the added bonus of the Minolta legacy.
Also I suspect quite a few first time A mount buyers will possibly not be aware of the Minolta lens legacy, one would think any decent sales person would mention this.
Olympus is in a similar position with the 'badge' image, although sales are pretty poor. However, Mr modern technophobe will want to look at Samsung and Panasonic as well because I suspect many of his household gadgets are from those companies, so their cameras must be good!!
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by Vidgamer »

It's not just the badge, it's the security of buying "the best" brand, in a field where the user lacks confidence to make big judgements. Those of us who take the time to look into pros and cons can make choices from more players. But there's a strong pull to go Canikon, if buying an expensive camera. For some, it could be the badge, I suppose, as bragging rights.
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by classiccameras »

I must admit that Pentax [because of IBIS] would be my first port of call followed by Canikon if Sony don't offer any thing new, decent and improved in A mount next year.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I'm reading quite a lot of posts about these sensor reflection issues..

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52986111

It seems to be a mirrorless problem (at least for some makers) and quite a serious one at that.

There is a lot to like about Pentax (some nice bodies and some decent lenses) but give them a bash if you want, just make sure you get one that's ok for AF!
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Re: A7 crippled sensor?

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:I'm reading quite a lot of posts about these sensor reflection issues..

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52986111

It seems to be a mirrorless problem (at least for some makers) and quite a serious one at that.

There is a lot to like about Pentax (some nice bodies and some decent lenses) but give them a bash if you want, just make sure you get one that's ok for AF!
I took a quick look at that thread. All of the examples seem to be blown-out lights, particularly at night (street lights, etc.). It wouldn't be the first time there was an observed reflection as light bounced around, but if it requires that kind of overexposure, it's a bit of an edge case. Interestingly, the A7R didn't exhibit the same sensor reflections, so presumably, this is related to the low-pass AA filter for the A7.

Why wouldn't DLSRs have the same problem? I recall discussions of using film lenses with digital cameras; film didn't have so much concern with reflections back off of the rear element, but modern lenses need to be coated back there for that purpose.

BTW, if you want to look for a more serious A7 fault, look on DPR for the discussion of compressed RAW!
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