Another boost to A7/R

For discussion of the E and FE mount mirrorless system
User avatar
Birma
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6585
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:10 pm

Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Birma »

The sort of advertising that Sony couldn't buy - Trey Ratcliff changes to A7R :D . He also discovers the SEL 10-18 is the best wide angle lens for it (some time after DK's article on 3rd December).

http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2013/12/3 ... -sony-a7r/
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by alphaomega »

There is also an interesting comment on SAR here
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/part-fou ... or-pascal/
by a Canon shooter Roy Teo who sold his Canon gear and purchased the A7r
“I have been a Canon shooter for the past few years and have been shooting the 5Dmk3 for the last 2 years with various L lenses. However, recently i made the big decision and switched to the Sony A7R. I sold all my Canon gear and bought into the Sony system. Most recently, i did my very first shoot with the A7R. No major editing was done as i was still experimenting with the Sony camera as it is vastly different from anything i’m used to on a Canon.
Comparing to the Canon, the major difference was the AF method. The face detection works flawlessly and unlike the Canon where you have to select the focus point, on the A7R, the face detection does everything for you.
The magnification and peaking mode worked amazingly for manual focusing.
The resolution of the raw files are better than anything i was used to on the Canon.I did not have to adjust the level much in order to get the image exposed correctly.
The captured image is accurate straight out of the camera. The dynamic range is better than the Canon files I was used to.
To sum it up, I am really happy i made the switch. It’s lightweight and handles files way better than the 5D3.
Although the AF is slower and continuous focusing doesn’t keep up, for my line of portrait shooting, those do not matter. Resolution and dynamic range and colour tones matter more and in this aspect, this is where the A7R truly shine unlike any other camera i have used.
He saviours the DR, the Sony colours and amazingly face detection. I think that gradually the A7r is making its way into the "professional class" as the versatility and sheer quality of the output dawns on CAN/NIK users.
peterottaway
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 600
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:24 am
Location: Northam, Western Australia

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by peterottaway »

I don't want to overstate the effects of the various lens adapters as I suspect that for many people this will be a short lived fad. Yes very useful for some and a good conversation item but nothing more.

By adapters I am excluding the Sony A to E adapters as I think that for many people like me with a major investment in Minolta and Sony glass. At this stage I can't see myself rushing out to duplicate or replace what I all ready have unless something really special turns up.

What is dangerous for Canon and Nikon is the number of enthusiast and pro shooters who will be tempted to indulge into something different. These photographers won't abandon their current gear anytime soon but are now open to other alternative solutions. They can mix and match.You can still retain existing 14 to 24, 24 to 70 and 70 to 200 zooms plus macro and T/S lenses. But a number will buy Sony or Zeiss lenses if something comes up that suits their A 7 or A8 or whatever.

DSLR sales are under pressure but Sony is not going to undermine the big two in absolute terms anytime soon but they will start to steal dollars that would have gone to Canon or Nikon before the E system existed. Given that these companies have a more fixed baseline cost structure, this will hurt.

Just don't expect sales of Nikon D3xxx and two kit zooms to fall off the cliff anytime soon.
Heidfirst
Oligarch
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 2:07 am

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Heidfirst »

from the forums that I read it seems that noticeably more Canon shooters are being tempted to the A7/A7R than Nikon users.
I suppose that was to be expected as Nikon users already have the Sony 24 & 36MP sensors in native mount bodies (albeit somewhat larger).
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by alphaomega »

But the wider acceptance of the excellet IQ of the A7r shows a potentially positive trend for Sony & mirrorless cameras. SAR have just published Japanese 2013 sales figures for mirrorless and four Sony cameras figure amongst the top twenty capturing 23.1%, these being in descending order
NEX-5R - position 1 with 11.9%
NEX-3N - position 6 with 5.1%
NEX-F3 - position 11 with 2.6%
NEX-6 - position 12 with 2.1%
NEX-7 - position 19 with 1.4&
Total 23.1%

Their DSLR performance is dismal. Only A65 in top 20. No wonder Sony are concentrating on mirrorless.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/2013-sal ... -in-japan/

For those looking for a DSLR as opposed to SLT or whatever with EVF stop looking. It won't happen

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-4-mi ... t-cameras/

The next EVF will be at 4 million dot and better than the current NEX-6 etc. version. Sony are moving closer to a OVF "killer" (except for Barry Fitzgerald and his likes). This may even give me what I want - a NEX-6 type EVF that can handle sunlight conditions.
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Couple of points to be made here.
The figures only show the market in Japan, which is known to be strong for mirror less sales. Europe and the USA are much weaker for this type of product. USA and Europe combined is a far larger market than Japan.

It's easy to be selective with figures, I could post some places where Apple are getting wiped out for market share in some regions (in some far eastern markets their more affordable Android rivals are storming ahead) But it doesn't reveal what's going on in other regions (Apple are particularly strong in the USA, not as much Europe)

The A65 is over 2 years old so is anyone surprised it's not actually selling that well? Same for the A77. And the A99 has likely not sold very well either. These products are either out dated or not priced competitively v the big 2 so no wonder Sony are getting a hammering. Sony put very little effort into their A Mount range in 2013, just the boring cut down A58, and the OTT price A99.

So you get dismal if you don't put any work into your model line up. It's a miracle the A65 even charted on the sales figures.
Sony can ignore users who want OVF's as much as they want, doesn't matter what they do now (OVF or EVF) the market is going to be tough as nails in 2014. OVF or EVF Sony's push is all a bit late really, unless they pull something amazing off and price it at realistic levels 2014 is probably going to be another zzzzz year for A mount.

I expect a new A77 to be overpriced and not do that well. And a 36mp SLT that's priced well above the current A99. SAR are suggesting Sony are targeting the pro level market, the problem is they don't actually have a pro presence of any significance. What's going on in the entry to mid level is far more important for Sony, but they don't seem to have worked that out.

As for Trey I remember watching a video of his saying that APS-C was "good enough" for him in both IQ and DOF control :lol:
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by alphaomega »

SAR are suggesting Sony are targeting the pro level market, the problem is they don't actually have a pro presence of any significance.
I would agree with that as far as Alpha is concerned. I think that the only penetration of parts of the pro market Sony can make is through cameras such as the A7r and that for landscape/architecture/portraiture etc. where high quality combined with light weight and lens versatility can score. No chance in sports photography. At some point, the small eastern ladies carrying CAN/NIK DSLRs with kit lenses, must realise they are better off with a NEX/A or whatever Sony will call these in the future (or a RX100).
CharlieWebster
Oligarch
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:09 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by CharlieWebster »

I tried the 1018 on the R and found it unusable. But i did not press the case and test extensively.

It is however usable on the A7:

Image
DSC02346-4 by unoh7, on Flickr

Image
DSC02353-2 by unoh7, on Flickr

However it is far from optimal. I would never advise buying the lens for the A7. Canon nFD 20/2.8 is the best ultrawide on either A7 I have tried so far, but I am sure we will see a good native soon.
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by alphaomega »

Something astounding for Barry Fitzgerald to comment on:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/dslrmaga ... g-results/
DSLRmagazine: Sony A7r vs Nikon D800 and A7 vs Leica M test. Sony has the best JPG results!
Perhaps, if Barry Fitzgerald waits long enough he might get a Sony camera with a Jpeg engine that finally satisfies him. I must admit that I am quite happy with the output of my NEX-6 and now rarely use the RAW images. I am even toying with the idea of switching from RAW+Jpeg to just Jpeg. Rarely find any CA in the Jpeg images straight out of the camera and correct Auto Tone seems to be spot on out of camera as well most of the time.
classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by classiccameras »

I cannot talk about other Sony's, but I am very pleased with the Jpeg output of my A-37. I experimented with the colour temp after seeking advice on this forum and after reducing the over warm default Jpeg settings, Jpegs seem to come alive with more detail and DR.
Vidgamer
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:37 am

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Vidgamer »

alphaomega wrote:Something astounding for Barry Fitzgerald to comment on:
.... I must admit that I am quite happy with the output of my NEX-6 and now rarely use the RAW images. I am even toying with the idea of switching from RAW+Jpeg to just Jpeg. Rarely find any CA in the Jpeg images straight out of the camera and correct Auto Tone seems to be spot on out of camera as well most of the time.
I agree, I'm pretty happy with my Nex-6 output. The JPEG output isn't perfect, though, and for perfection, I use RAW. I can dial in just the amount of NR that I want, fiddle with the WB, I have more bandwidth in which to rescue highlights, etc. But I think AWB is really good, better than that on the Nex-5. Even so, today, first thing I did at an event was set the custom white balance, aiming at a white tablecloth. Maybe that won't be perfect, but a good approximation. (Fluorescent lights always seem problematic.) In doing so, I decided to just go with JPEG-only for most photos. I think that will be sufficient for the intended purpose. Where I really need pixel-perfect perfection, you just can't beat a good RAW converter, although, sometimes it's really hard doing a lot better than the camera JPEG without some effort.
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

alphaomega wrote:Something astounding for Barry Fitzgerald to comment on:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/dslrmaga ... g-results/
DSLRmagazine: Sony A7r vs Nikon D800 and A7 vs Leica M test. Sony has the best JPG results!
Perhaps, if Barry Fitzgerald waits long enough he might get a Sony camera with a Jpeg engine that finally satisfies him. I must admit that I am quite happy with the output of my NEX-6 and now rarely use the RAW images. I am even toying with the idea of switching from RAW+Jpeg to just Jpeg. Rarely find any CA in the Jpeg images straight out of the camera and correct Auto Tone seems to be spot on out of camera as well most of the time.
If mirrorless is to catch on, it's not just jpegs that concern me but cost.
Lensrentals did a tear down on the A7R

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/01 ... ess-camera


"How much simpler it must be to perform all the calibration that must be done during assembly. And how much simpler it must be to assemble the A7R in the first place. In other words, how much cheaper it must be to make this camera, than to make a DSLR"

If ILC's are going to grab people's attention, they need to offer some kind of cost incentive. Even if you price the sensor at hundreds of pounds for the A7, it's hard to imagine the actual cost of making this unit being that high at all, certainly the £1700 odd asking price seems excessive.

Mirrorless is going to have to offer not just better margins for makers, but a real cost reason for DSLR users to look at it. Until they grasp that then I'm afraid many of us will simply ignore their offerings. I'm open to trying new things (and accepting some limitations), but you have to give me a reason to do so...and at the current prices there is no reason to look at them.
alphaomega
Viceroy
Posts: 1196
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by alphaomega »

Reference Barry Fitzgerald comments on A7r costs above.
1. Pricing is based on what an estimate of what the market will pay rather than costs and an estimate of the volume the price will generate versus production capacity. Avoid excess stocks through too low a price or a demand that cannot be fulfilled through under pricing.
2. This is a new design and design costs should be recovered as early as possible through sales to new adaptors and before a more generic pricing point is forced on the supplier. Note the elegance of the design and the "gyrations" the designers must have gone through to arrive at this desirable end point. This is not a cheap process for a ground breaking design.
3. Based on my manufacturing experience, this is quite a complicated assembly with many delicate parts and key items such as shutter purchased from an outside supplier.
I am not convinced that the Sony price is all that out of range, but time will show when they are forced to reduce price through a lack of demand.
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3996
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

You failed to address the point raised.
Of course a company will try to get the best price they can and best margin, but that does not mean that the consumer will jump on it. Blu ray media and players were long overpriced and ultimately have had poor adoption in the market place (and yes I have a player and a drive on my pc)

I suspect the reason EU and USA buyers have snubbed mirrorless (it's share is tiny v DSLR's) is partly on cost and other factors (ie they have their needs met with other dedicated complete systems)
I'm not buying the complicated assembly it's far less complicated and will take a lot less time to make than a DSLR. It's little more than a PCB, a sensor and a case really very simple to make and manufacture.

I'll repeat again until mirrorless makers wake up and smell the coffee on pricing, they'll be under the shadow of DSLR's for a long time.
I see no reason to look at ILC's until they are priced at more competitive levels, that goes for other makers too not just Sony. I'd much rather buy a DSLR from any maker than an ILC which offers less for more.
User avatar
Birma
Tower of Babel
Posts: 6585
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:10 pm

Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Birma »

... and yet another boost. All of us Sony fanboys can sleep easy in our beds; DPR have given the A7R a Gold!

That should save keyboards around the world a good battering ;)
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests