Another boost to A7/R

For discussion of the E and FE mount mirrorless system
Vidgamer
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote: It's not about what you or I want, but what the general public want.
If I'm spending my money, then it is about what I want. If there are too few people that also buy what I want, the product might not be developed, but otherwise, I do count. I vote with my money.
I don't have a problem with mirrorless, but I see it for what it is, an alternative and in some cases it might make an ok addition to DSLR users.
Depending upon the preferences of the user, it could be an alternative, a replacement, or an addition. Or unnecessary.
What I don't see is a compelling reason for users like myself to ditch their DSLR type bodies and go for an ILC model. I just don't see the advantages.
If you need small that's great travel shooter completely understand it.
If you have to boil it down, I think it's mostly size and weight. There are events where size doesn't matter and I could have a larger camera, but a lot of the time, I appreciate the reduced weight walking around, and other times where the small size means I can stuff it into a jacket pocket, carry more easily on a plane, etc. Yes, travel was a big factor -- travel with something a bit more manageable. I think this could be a big motivator for some people.
But from a practical perspective what does mirrorless offer me that I can't do with DSLR?
If you half-press and pre-focus, there's almost no lag time. It's fast, but maybe unnecessary. Now that I'm used to DMF and the focus magnification, it's hard to go back to an OVF. You just can't have peaking and focus magnification in a normal DSLR OVF, and while people have long praised OVF over EVF, the OVFs in small DSLRs are smaller, so it's not like everything DSLR is perfect.

But in general, I'd say that if you like the size and weight of the DSLR, there's no advantage. The DSLR generally has an advantage with tracking AF, and overall speed if you get the more expensive models, but the mirrorless models are getting better at this.
Bar a far smaller range of lenses. There are adaptors out there for older glass fine bargain hunters might find some use for it.
I don't think it's even just "bargain hunters" that want legacy glass, but a lot of collectors and enthusiasts, many of which used such lenses with manual focus years ago. The A-mount adapters give the E-mount access to a full range of lenses; this is especially important at the tele end of things, IMO.
How small is small enough? If I put a flash on a mirrorless body it's unbalanced big time.
Once attached, the flash is not glued to the system -- you can remove it for times in which you don't want the bulk. Same for long, tele lenses. Most of the time, the built-in flash is sufficient, and in some models, you can actually "bounce" it. You might be thinking the built-in flash is not as good as the unbalanced external flash, and you'd be right -- there is some compromise, but not everything needs to be the ultimate quality ready for publishing in National Geographic. You might be surprised at how well high ISO can make up the difference for both large lenses and flashes.
I've expressed a passing interest in Fuji in the past and I do have an interest..but
Looking at the lenses coming out that 16-55mm f2.8 (broadly equivalent to either the Sony or Tamron fast zooms)
77mm filter?

http://news.softpedia.com/newsImage/Fuj ... 521-2.jpg/

Def looks quite a lot bigger than the Tamron I have. And I'd expect the price to be quite a bit higher.
Even looking at their 18-135mm lens, again bigger filter and it looks larger to me than the Sony I have, and again I suspect it's going to cost more than the other makers equivalent lenses (they all do lenses in this range now)
Look at it, though -- it's styled like an old SLR, with retro dials. I think this is a niche product that's going to appeal to a certain user and not others. I don't think Fuji is even bothering to compete in the mainstream.

Meanwhile, they claim really good AF performance. It doesn't seem as if it loses much to a DSLR, and probably performs better than some low-end DSLRs. You still get some size advantage.
So where is the size advantage? Only body really.
Biggest problem is wallet. Cost of moving to something like X mount would cost me a fortune trying to replicate my current line up of lenses (they do have some interesting lenses and the 35mm f1.4 isn't a bad price)

Onto Sony they've never really developed the E mount APS-C lens range that well anyway.
They still have some notable gaps, but I think they did a reasonable job of bringing out the most useful lenses first, for the most part. What's left? An 85mm might be nice, but then again, Sigma has a 60mm that might do. A couple of things seemed odd -- coming out with the 30mm macro and then the separate 35/1.8, and then Sigma had the 30/2.8 -- that's a lot of overlap in that range. But it seemed like whenever someone had a complaint about something missing in the line, Sony would (eventually) answer; which was unsurprising as they had laid out a lens roadmap that they worked on for years. Maybe some people thought Sony was just kidding?

Now Sony is bringing out some higher-end zooms, and the lens line is looking pretty full. Personally, I'd rather have more budget lenses. Nothing's perfect.
I saw a NEX 6 on ebay brand new for £399, I can get it if folks pick one of those up not a bad price and a nice enough camera on a deal.

As for buying into the system I'm not seeing it, no real advantage bar MF glass adaptor users.
Same for all the ILC systems I'm just not seeing why a DSLR users (who might not necessarily be using a huge sized body anyway) would dump their current rig and lenses. Until ILC makers find a real reason to tempt people I for one remain quite unconvinced with the entire strategy.
If you already have a number of lenses in a system, it's going to be difficult to switch regardless of how compelling an alternative might be. But now you're staying with the system because you're trapped, not because it's ideal. ;-) Seriously, though, if it works for you, I'd say stay with whatever you have. Why change? Back in the film days, we kept cameras for many years, and they took photos just as good as the year before. Why should DSLRs be any different?

I think size, weight, and to some extent, even cost might be reasons to go with a compact mirrorless system.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I'm not entirely trapped, but the DSLR system you use is to a point designed to tie you into that maker (but like I said I'm free to buy Metz flashes and Tamron lenses too)
Body wise trapped if I stay with A Mount (I'd love some maker in China to make a clone A Mount body!)

But then you can decide to move systems.
ILC's don't have a trap though that's their profit eating weakness you're not so tied into the system. I wonder how many A7's are being used with EOS glass and an adaptor?

The main point I want to make isn't just trying to appeal to people who are fairly heavily invested into a lens mount (there is clearly a need to appeal to these users longer term) I'm just not seeing people buying mirrorless not in big numbers. I'm talking about a DSLR buyer with a kit lens who has no intention of ever buying anything else..likely ever. Budget EOS1100d user, picks one up for £240 odd and just has fun.

That user is still buying a budget Canon (or Nikon) DSLR and NOT an mirrorless from all the various makers. That's how I see it and I see a lot of people with budget DSLR's, they're not buying budget mirrorless models that's the problem! (or rather the problem for ILC makers) I see this time and time again. And in the USA mirrorless is just not big or hip enough to appeal. You have your petite soccer mom taking up photography and they do (many of them) go straight out a dump a lot of cash on stuff big bodies big L lenses.

Wandering around with a small camera just isn't good PR for an up and coming mom shooter. There is a mentality where people think (right or wrong) big camera big photographer. I don't agree with it, but it's no question a major factor.
Grab a 5dMkIII or 6d and grip shove a red ring chunky L lens on there and it's reality that people feel that small is worse. You're just not going to get the same wow factor with an EM-5 or XE-2 or G series Pannie or Sony E mount.

ILC makers ignored this and now suffer because they didn't understand marketing.
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

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So its male jewelry, bigger the gold chain the more respect.
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bakubo
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

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These sorts of discussions are strange to me. It is just like all those people who complain about the Toyota Prius saying it doesn't make much sense when for about the same money people can buy a Ford F-350 pickup truck. :lol: I just figure that people who prefer a Prius should buy a Prius and people who prefer an F-350 should buy an F-350.
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As I wrote several years ago, I don't see any reason that a mirrorless camera can't be made that is as big as a DSLR that uses the same DSLR lenses. I don't know what will happen, but I suspect eventually Canon and Nikon will come out with a model that uses their DSLR lenses, probably looks much like their current DSLR models, but is mirrorless and has an EVF. The Sony SLT models are almost like that, but with OSPDAF the SLT probably isn't really needed now.
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Birma
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

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I think it is more complicated than which type of camera sold more. I suspect that most CSCs are bought by people who also have a dslr or dslt . At one time the second camera was a compact such as a LX5 or S95. Now people are getting into a second system. Now, rather than simply progressing through the range of Canikon bodies and lenses you are deciding where to spend your photo money next. I think the CSC manufacturers are selling more bodies than if they were just realising me too dslr bodies.
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

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When I sold my G2 and G3 bodies, I kept the excellent Panny 14-45 and 20mm F/1.7 and put them into storage just in case I get tempted with a real M/4/3 eye catcher in future.
Vidgamer
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

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bakubo wrote:These sorts of discussions are strange to me. It is just like all those people who complain about the Toyota Prius saying it doesn't make much sense when for about the same money people can buy a Ford F-350 pickup truck. :lol: I just figure that people who prefer a Prius should buy a Prius and people who prefer an F-350 should buy an F-350.
Sure! Why not?
As I wrote several years ago, I don't see any reason that a mirrorless camera can't be made that is as big as a DSLR that uses the same DSLR lenses. I don't know what will happen, but I suspect eventually Canon and Nikon will come out with a model that uses their DSLR lenses, probably looks much like their current DSLR models, but is mirrorless and has an EVF. The Sony SLT models are almost like that, but with OSPDAF the SLT probably isn't really needed now.
Yes, this is it exactly. I think Sony's been working on this angle for years. The advantage of having a new mount is that for shorter focal lengths, you have more options in designing lenses, but there's nothing saying you can't use the old mount and still drop the mirror.

I noticed a long time ago that some A-mount fans were already annoyed at losing the OVF and other features, so I think there will be a lot of angst at some point. Maybe at the high-end, OVFs will still be available for quite a while.
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Dr. Harout
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Dr. Harout »

A-mount will not be the same in the near future...
Either they will add the possibility of electronic aperture and gradually omit the existing mechanical one,
Or, they will make no change and in time abandon it.
If Sony adopts the electronic aperture for A-mount, then A-mount will stay for a very long time. If not, then the future is with E-mount.
As for the flange, I'm not sure which is better.


P.S.: just thinking loudly 8)
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Dr. Harout wrote:A-mount will not be the same in the near future...
Either they will add the possibility of electronic aperture and gradually omit the existing mechanical one,
Or, they will make no change and in time abandon it.
If Sony adopts the electronic aperture for A-mount, then A-mount will stay for a very long time. If not, then the future is with E-mount.
As for the flange, I'm not sure which is better.


P.S.: just thinking loudly 8)
Doc I think Sony has already abandoned the A-mount up to a point, once they changed too a fixed translucent mirror with an EVF and then dropped the i-shoe it was largely no longer the original A-mount. Too bring an electronic aperture into the equation I’m sure they need another few contacts in the mount to provide control of it and that will be an even more radical departure from the original A-mount, whereupon they will shed more customers than they have already.
There is also the rumour of some kind of mirrorless version of the A-mount, if so that’s more departure from the original A-mount and a likelihood the old screw drive lenses won’t work very well with that AF system.
Lens bargain time…yay! (just kidding) :mrgreen:
Greg
ps That's 'thinking out loud' :lol: Thinking loudly makes it sound completely different ha ha.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Greg is right and I'll admit to being a reluctant user (but economical cost of moving mounts is putting me off quite a lot) and I have a lot of time for some of those not perfect but very affordable and mostly very good classics from years past.

I've been using the 70-210mm quite a lot and it has undeniable charm, despite some CA issues it's still a good performer. And I have a lot of time for the 28-85mm which I use on film and it's a fine lens too as is the 35-70mm f4. All for a mere song price wise I would add. And I have spotless samples of each lens as I do with the other lenses I have.

Now if someone can tell me where I can get a 70-200mm f4 stabilised lens for any mount for about £100 s/h then I'm all ears.
Changing to electronic aperture control will do very little bar please video users, it's of no use to stills shooters (Nikon and Pentax are using mechanical apertures too) and after the number of Canon lenses I've seen with failed aperture blades due to mostly poor QC on the ribbon cables in the lenses I'm not convinced. The 24-105mm L is a notable example I know many who have had this problem.

Sony's mistake is not capitalising on their IBIS potential time and time again they've failed to offer more for less. Which is about the only way they can attack Canikon (charging more won't work that's for sure)
A mount has a lot of s/h autofocus glass
E mount has virtually nothing..unless you want to buy adaptors and manual focus

Quite clear to me A mount has (or did have) more potential longer term. Even more so as ILC's are not doing well at all in many markets.
I've yet to see anything appealing E mount to date. A7 well one model seems to have shutter shock problems and too many pixels, the other one is only interesting as it's a FF sensor soldered to a PCB and shoved in a case.

As annoying as the silly hot shoe experiment is, and as uninteresting as I find EVF's to be. Sony's biggest problem is actually making something people might want to buy. They're not good at reading the market and gauging users needs. The A58 is the only A mount camera they've released in a year, that's pretty embarrassing for any company pretending to compete in this market.

Hot shoe issue aside they could have at least put a small bit of effort into that model, rather than some cut down tiny buffer plastic offering.
Plenty of cheaper EOS 1100d's flying out the door..
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by classiccameras »

Its only the lure of cheap KM glass thats keeping me from moving on to pastures new.
I only have 2 budget bodies and 3 Sony and 2 Minolta lenses and I'm reluctant to build further on that so it wouldn't hurt to much to sell it even at a loss.
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by alphaomega »

This thread is supposedly about the A7/7r, but has veered off to other traumatic Sony doings or not doings.
Just been out with my better half. She wanted some pictures that could only be taken by putting a camera on a pole. What could I do? I dug out a remote from an old A700 box and put my NEX-6 with 16-50 on a monopod and she got her pictures. You can actually do a lot with Sony gear if you have a mixture. In my time I have had good use of A700/A350/A550/A580/NEX-5/5N/6 and RX100 and retain the A550/580/NEX-5n/6 and RX100. Whatever the task, there is a Sony solution. I would never dream of going through the mental and financial trauma of even contemplating a switch to another make. Only problem I have ever had was the E 16mm pancake and Sony fixed it in no time FOC. Maybe I am unique. I seem to be the only satisfied Sony user. Maybe my ambitions and photography is too limited in scope.
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Birma
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Birma »

You're right Alphaomega, this thread has gone astray, but please add me to the list of satisfied users :) . I also think that the vast majority of posters here are satisfied users (otherwise they wouldn't be here!), it is just the potential future they are concerned about. Like you, I'm a fully committed dual system user. What the future brings, it brings :)
Nex 5, Nex 6 (IR), A7M2, A99 and a bunch of lenses.
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by classiccameras »

Birma, I agree with that, its very easy to think the grass is greener on the other side, and I think most Sony users are loyal users. [ there's a lot to like about Sony cameras ]. We can gripe about the system but then I have seen just as many gripes on the Canikon forums, so we are not unique. I guess the biggest concern by most of us is the future of the 2 mounts.
As for the A7/R, I don't think they have got them fully developed yet and it could be a lost cause in the long run, sales will be small by comparison. There is no getting away from it, Sony are determined to miniturise its camera fleet whether its E or A mount. All manufacturers are jumping on the small is better band waggon with the exception of Canikon who have just dabbled their toes in the water so far, and I guess Sony don't want to be left behind, with Olympus and Panasonic starting it all. Trouble is as Barry said they don't seem to have any infrastructure in place to ask the market place/Sony users what they would like to see, it seems they have no interest in market research at all, whether this is just doggie-doo managment or a deliberate stance, who knows.
I think Canikon are looking on at the smaller players wondering what crazy moves they have planned next. Even if the A7/R prices were to come down below £1000, I would still not be interested. The A mount has had many years to get perfected and although not perfect it is much better than other mounts IMO.
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Re: Another boost to A7/R

Unread post by Vidgamer »

bfitzgerald wrote:Greg is right and I'll admit to being a reluctant user (but economical cost of moving mounts is putting me off quite a lot) and I have a lot of time for some of those not perfect but very affordable and mostly very good classics from years past.
Yes, it's a problem with any system that you feel "locked-in". At least you're locked-into an affordable system. I, too, have enjoyed the old Minolta lenses.
I've been using the 70-210mm quite a lot and it has undeniable charm, despite some CA issues it's still a good performer. And I have a lot of time for the 28-85mm which I use on film and it's a fine lens too as is the 35-70mm f4. All for a mere song price wise I would add. And I have spotless samples of each lens as I do with the other lenses I have.

Now if someone can tell me where I can get a 70-200mm f4 stabilised lens for any mount for about £100 s/h then I'm all ears.
Back when I was shopping for A-mount lenses, the Beercan was $200 for poor copies, and $250 or more for good copies. There was a real fad going on, driving up the price. I ended up with a Tamron 55-200 for something like $162 new, which is actually a really good lens -- f4 or f4.6 for much of its length, plenty sharp wide open, compact size.

Anyway, it sounds like the bottom is dropping out of the Minolta/A-mount used market. Maybe a sign that there is a lack of confidence in the mount. Maybe I should go looking for deals... :-)
Changing to electronic aperture control will do very little bar please video users, it's of no use to stills shooters...
I don't know what benefit electronic aperture control provides. Where e-mount does have a benefit is dropping the light-loss from the SLT mirror (and the lag from the old solid mirror), as well as the costs.
Sony's mistake is not capitalising on their IBIS potential time and time again they've failed to offer more for less. Which is about the only way they can attack Canikon (charging more won't work that's for sure)
A mount has a lot of s/h autofocus glass
E mount has virtually nothing..unless you want to buy adaptors and manual focus
Nothing? :roll:
Quite clear to me A mount has (or did have) more potential longer term. Even more so as ILC's are not doing well at all in many markets.
I've yet to see anything appealing E mount to date. A7 well one model seems to have shutter shock problems and too many pixels, the other one is only interesting as it's a FF sensor soldered to a PCB and shoved in a case.
The A7 can't have shutter-shock, as it has EFC shutter, and I imagine that many DSLRs have problems with shutter-shock. I even recall discussions around it at the time of the A100. Why are there options for mirror lock-up? But the A7 is nothing but a FF sensor in a case? The camera is otherwise not a camera? I don't get it. I mean if you don't like it, that's fine, but it sounds like sour grapes to me.

It seems clear to me that the A7 and A7r sent shockwaves through the industry. Then again, if you're a Canikon fan, nothing else will do. My dad bought nothing but Ford trucks and cars for years, and they were reliable. Who am I to tell him differently? It's not like Canikon are not reliable brands. Consistent, incremental, if not impressive, improvements year after year is working for them. Personally, it's not the way I want to go, but, you don't see me going onto other forums trying to convince users to give up their cameras that they enjoy.
As annoying as the silly hot shoe experiment is, and as uninteresting as I find EVF's to be. Sony's biggest problem is actually making something people might want to buy. They're not good at reading the market and gauging users needs. The A58 is the only A mount camera they've released in a year, that's pretty embarrassing for any company pretending to compete in this market.
They've been competing in this market for years with all sorts of models, including introducing FF models at price points that were unmatched. At some point, we all have to come to terms with the fact that most people just buy into the "Canikon is pro" message. I have two family members that bought entry-level Canon DSLRs; they know I'm into cameras and photography, but neither asked for my opinion for any of it. How does Sony get past that?
Hot shoe issue aside they could have at least put a small bit of effort into that model, rather than some cut down tiny buffer plastic offering.
Plenty of cheaper EOS 1100d's flying out the door..
I think the A3000 was Sony's response to these lowest-end DSLRs.
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