A7s pricing

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Greg Beetham
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Wobbly video is wobbly video whoever does it, apparently professionals who do video know which type of camera, CMOS or CCD is best in a given situation and take the appropriate camera.
Anyway I didn’t notice any violent panning happening, there was some panning but it didn’t look too violent, I think it was the poor light value and the 50Hz cycle time of the lights themselves interfering with the read time of the sensor, or causing some kind of asynchronous feed in the system, have a look at the B&H explanation and comparison of the differences between the CMOS rolling shutter readout and the CCD global shutter readouts. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/news ... ensors.jsp
CCD designs apparently read the whole sensor all at once while in CMOS the sensor is read from the top down. CMOS sensors are very prone to being ‘flashed’ by high cycle time flashes which can freeze the ‘read’ while it’s in progress, this I understand is mainly a concern with sensors in continuous feed and not in single record mode.
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by alphaomega »

A new angle on the A7s and Sony's general new strategy.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-sony ... -guiskard/
Worth reading. Here os a Nikon user doing reportage photography who has ditched DSLRs and now fully committed to Sony, but using Zeiss and Nikon glass.
His comments on the EVF are also interesting
Being used to optical viewfinders I didn’t really know what to think of this EVF in the beginning. Looking through optics isn’t exactly the same thing as staring on a screen. But again it turned out to be a smart piece of technology. I really like the possibility to display different kind of levels and other information. However, most important to me is the constant brightness no matter what f-stop you choose. Even at night you’ll get a usable viewfinder image to work with. Shooting in bright daylight it’s very useful for briefly checking your results as one doesn’t see anything on the screen on the back of the camera. Another highlight is the the magnifying tool and focus peaking – both very helpful when using legacy glass.
It would appear that Sony are more successful in moving Canikon users over with their RX, E and FE mount strategy compared with the "failed" head on DSLR assault. Pricing is probably not as big an issue as usability for these kind of people.
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bakubo
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by bakubo »

Do you know of the A7/A7r/A7s EVF can now show the full effects of your jpeg setting so that raw shooters can open up the shadows and reduce the blown highlights in the EVF? See this thread for the full info:

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... 01t#p82138

Sony's earlier bodies with an EVF, unfortunately, couldn't do it. It would be really good news if the new ones can.
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pakodominguez
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by pakodominguez »

Greg Beetham wrote:Wobbly video is wobbly video whoever does it, apparently professionals who do video know which type of camera, CMOS or CCD is best in a given situation and take the appropriate camera.
FYI:
https://twitter.com/DenLennie/status/469625986128953346
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Greg Beetham
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Ok Pako, this A7s super go-pro widget has sort of got me interested from the still taking aspect not the video so much, I’ll leave the video for those who like doing that sort of thing. With lower MP’s the stills potential might be good for the older lenses and I don’t know about you but I don’t need a camera for portraiture that shows every single pore in someone’s face where the current trend has been going, good DR yes and fine gradients yes, but sharp infinite contrast detail not so much, for me anyway, otoh for group shots you probably do need the bigger MP cameras.
I’ve heard comments about the previous 7’s that the response by the EVF doesn’t exactly match the response by the main sensor so it can mislead in either direction, highlights and shadows, maybe it’s the DR of the EVF that is not as great as in the main sensor so it can’t show it as the sensor sees it, also the shadow noise response and the WB might not be the same, even the focus peaking doesn’t work as well as hoped, it gets iffy as the EV goes south, apparently it highlights nearly everything in the viewfinder so you can’t tell what’s in focus and what isn’t.
I’ve never used one so I don’t know directly, maybe those observations originate from rather extreme circumstances or getting towards that area, those who have one of the 7’s would know the limits of the EVF and how accurate it is when the chips are down.
One would think that a FF sensor that’s in the new 7s with potentially more DR would make the EVF vs. sensor difference even more pronounced.
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by peterottaway »

What is the correlation of an OVF to a 36 MP sensor ? I think may be a starting point to comparing the EVF.
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pakodominguez
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by pakodominguez »

Greg Beetham wrote:Ok Pako, this A7s super go-pro widget has sort of got me interested from the still taking aspect not the video so much, I’ll leave the video for those who like doing that sort of thing.
so, why did you insist on the rolling shutter issue?
Greg Beetham wrote: I’ve heard comments about the previous 7’s that the response by the EVF doesn’t exactly match the response by the main sensor so it can mislead in either direction, highlights and shadows, maybe it’s the DR of the EVF that is not as great as in the main sensor so it can’t show it as the sensor sees it, also the shadow noise response and the WB might not be the same, even the focus peaking doesn’t work as well as hoped, it gets iffy as the EV goes south, apparently it highlights nearly everything in the viewfinder so you can’t tell what’s in focus and what isn’t.
-The sensor ALWAYS see much more that what you can see on the EVF.
-All those comments about WB are irrelevant if you shoot RAW (hey, why do you want to shoot JPG only with a camera like this?). The EVF is OK. Better than the one on the A99, that was better that the one on the NEX7. "Shadow Noise" is relevant IMHO only when pixel peeping. What do you expect to see on the EVF?
-Focus peaking works the same way it does on the NEX cameras or A99. if you want focus to be exact, you need to enlarge the image (I have one of the custom buttons set for that). If you are using a legacy wide angle lens, set at f8, you will be mislead by the DOF proper to this settings, so you will hardly see what is really in focus 9if you don't enlarge the image...)

In other words, the user need to learn photography before using a camera like this. And the lac of attention to this details is what I often see on those "reviews" populating the internet and some "serious" magazines -the one of legacy lenses on the A7 published on DPR was specially sad...
Greg Beetham wrote:I’ve never used one so I don’t know directly, maybe those observations originate from rather extreme circumstances or getting towards that area, those who have one of the 7’s would know the limits of the EVF and how accurate it is when the chips are down.
One would think that a FF sensor that’s in the new 7s with potentially more DR would make the EVF vs. sensor difference even more pronounced.
Greg
I was afraid of working with an EVF, having a monitor projecting light to my eye during a 3; 4 or 8 hours event. I did have the NEX7 and I was OK with the EVF, but I don't use it for events' work, but mostly for everyday stuff and travel. i overcome that fear and got the A99 for other reasons and I can tell you that I didn't suffered of vision fatigue while working with that camera.

I sold the A99 (the NEX7 will be on ebay this weekend) when I got the A7R, that I use some times for events. Same experience. If you had never worked with a Maxxum 9 or 7; or the A850/A900, the EVF can only be great for you (the OVF of a camera like the Maxxum 5 or A3xx to A5xx looks small and dark)

The A7S is a niche camera, for low light and video. It won't sell millions of units by itself (but the A7's family probably will). If low light photography is what you want to do, get it. Otherwise I think the A7, that is less expensive, is a better choice. and you can reduce noise issues at high ISO by downsizing your files to 12MP.
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Pako dark isn't usually the problem (even the Dynax 5d with it's fairly small OVF) was rarely a problem with an appropriate lens shooting in low light conditions. Film 7 does better it's a very good OVF albeit not 100% coverage but big, clear and bright.
The issue is in high DR scenes and EVF's vary here.

The Fuji I got won't block up the shadows (not much) but it can blow out the highlights on the EVF (not on the exposure)
The SLT's I've used black up the shadow end but do a better job showing the highlights. Maybe the newer ones do better here (we shall have to wait on that)

In harsh lighting I think on balance I just need to see the subject clearly so I'd rather blow the highlight end than have shadows block up. Both are compromises to a point. OVF never has this issue, simply because the eye has variable exposure and thus quite huge DR overall. EVF's can be good in darker situations (bar the really low light lag), have good points like peaking and zoomed manual focus. But all the EVF's I've used fall down fairly hard in tough lighting. I have learnt to work around it to a point, but it is without question a limitation and obvious weakness.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: A7s pricing

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

[quote="pakodominguez"]
so, why did you insist on the rolling shutter issue?[quote]

The rolling shutter issue under fluro shouldn’t be as bad as it is they could have used an internal frequency that was different to florescent lights, and they could also have used a CCD instead of a CMOS if the camera is aimed at doing video primarily.

[quote="pakodominguez"]
-The sensor ALWAYS see much more that what you can see on the EVF.
-All those comments about WB are irrelevant if you shoot RAW (hey, why do you want to shoot JPG only with a camera like this?). The EVF is OK. Better than the one on the A99, that was better that the one on the NEX7. "Shadow Noise" is relevant IMHO only when pixel peeping. What do you expect to see on the EVF?
-Focus peaking works the same way it does on the NEX cameras or A99. if you want focus to be exact, you need to enlarge the image (I have one of the custom buttons set for that). If you are using a legacy wide angle lens, set at f8, you will be mislead by the DOF proper to this settings, so you will hardly see what is really in focus 9if you don't enlarge the image...)[quote]

Why not use jpegs occasionally? I use jpegs now quite often and the A7s is still a sensible 12MP camera even if it is a FF.
I expect to see what you can see if you use magnified view not less than the sensor, and what’s wrong with stopping down after you set the focus, there isn’t a lot of lenses apart from the bright primes and the super zooms that shift the focus after stopping down.
The eye always sees more than the sensor, that’s the thing that needs fixing the most, but instead Sony makes a system where the view finder sees even less than the sensor.

[quote="pakodominguez"]
In other words, the user need to learn photography before using a camera like this. And the lac of attention to this details is what I often see on those "reviews" populating the internet and some "serious" magazines -the one of legacy lenses on the A7 published on DPR was specially sad...[quote]

Agree with that.

[quote="pakodominguez"]
I was afraid of working with an EVF, having a monitor projecting light to my eye during a 3; 4 or 8 hours event. I did have the NEX7 and I was OK with the EVF, but I don't use it for events' work, but mostly for everyday stuff and travel. i overcome that fear and got the A99 for other reasons and I can tell you that I didn't suffered of vision fatigue while working with that camera.
I sold the A99 (the NEX7 will be on ebay this weekend) when I got the A7R, that I use some times for events. Same experience. If you had never worked with a Maxxum 9 or 7; or the A850/A900, the EVF can only be great for you (the OVF of a camera like the Maxxum 5 or A3xx to A5xx looks small and dark)
The A7S is a niche camera, for low light and video. It won't sell millions of units by itself (but the A7's family probably will). If low light photography is what you want to do, get it. Otherwise I think the A7, that is less expensive, is a better choice. and you can reduce noise issues at high ISO by downsizing your files to 12MP.

I don’t want to do extra messing around with RAW files all the time if I don’t need to and I’m not that interested in shooting in the dark but astrophotography is starting to look interesting now that a couple of club members have or will have large guided telescopes so RAW files would be needed for that and large MP cameras are more likely to have issues with photographic accuracy if you reduce the file size to reduce the noise.
Not for through the focuser use primarily mainly for piggybacking with camera lenses.
The other issue for photographic accuracy remains to be determined, the missing pixels that are used for focus and exposure, those are currently ‘invented’ pixels as far as I know.
Greg
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Re: A7s pricing- GOT ONE

Unread post by InTheSky »

After reading a lot of things about the A7S and also after shooting too many picture with a A7R here is the conclusion.

For most of my picture with the A7R, I realized that when I'm going up to ISO6400, there is no more than a 12MP picture that you can get from this picture. When I'm under ISO 6400, you have to go no more than ISO 400 to really get the 36MP.

My hard drive is driving crazy in space since I have the A7R, mostly because I'm taking picture of my day to day kids with it (3 under 5 years old, still too much pictures). Shutter of my A7R can wakeup a beaver in the far forest in the wood when I'm taking a picture at my chalet :) ... (It is not that bad ... but you can be surprised).

Since the summer I start trying some astrophotograpy with Equatorial mount and going in the long exposition department and this is where you can find the vibration of the A7R annoying.

I'm currently using in my small travel kit only Leica M mount lens : 12mm 5.6, 21mm 1.8, 40mm 2.0 and 90mm 2.0. (I think this is the perfect kit ever in my life). This kit in my small own design travel bag take less space than a single V bag with a DSLR and standard prime. BUT ... The A7r has difficulty with the 12mm and little with the 21mm in the corner.

The saving cost of the A7S with my few days experience:
-> You save time in processing picture of high ISO
-> you saving space on your Harddrive : less noisy picture, and less space, but PERFECT detail every time
-> you almost forget that is the Sharpness slider in lightroom
-> All you lens that was Good on the A7R because over that what you can expected, Perfect sharp wide open (less stress on the optic).
-> you save place for bad video ...
-> Silent shutter works ! (for portrait, standard picture, and only suffer if you want to capture racing cars ... ), but it is dead silence ... I'm still not use to it
-> the Perfect KILLER camera for any astrophotograpy (you can see the milky way in your view finder live)
-> you can now see in the dark :-) don't need to purchase special military stuff ...
-> you can do HDR play with Fill light and dark light in lightroom in picture at ISO3200 ...
-> Old prime lens and even old zoom lens from the past, are very good on the sensor (less stress on pixels)
-> Leica ultra wide of very short focus design now are working :-)
-> You can mistake that you are using the A7R ... same body and controls :-)
-> All the camera respond faster than the A7R.
-> ....

That is almost it for tonight ... , but so far ... I will still not sold the A7R because I need it for my Stock photo contract when customer are now use to many pixels ... , but outside that, the A7S is not my day to day camera ...
Frank
A7 (R, S & R II) + NEX 3N ( and few lenses )
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