Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

For discussion of the E and FE mount mirrorless system
User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3716
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:12 pm

Interesting..

Both ISO 3200 pushed 2/3 of a stop in raw no luminance NR colour NR 8 for both

sony v fuji.JPG
sony v fuji.JPG (109.56 KiB) Viewed 4440 times


Daylight test to follow shortly

User avatar
mikeriach
Imperial Ambassador
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby mikeriach » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:34 pm

The Fuji looks good.

Mike
Only a Tamron 16-300 left sadly. Sony cannot supply what I want so rightly or wrongly I've branched out to someone who does and I'm very happy.

User avatar
bakubo
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 5714
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bakubo » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:31 pm

What was the shutter speed and aperture for each?

User avatar
Sinan
Acolyte
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby Sinan » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:55 pm

I'd guess shutter speed is half in Sony because Fuji is infamous with its ISO cheating. Its not producing as clean images in high ISO, its just increasing ISO faster so in many cases its ISO 3200 is same as other cameras' ISO1600.

To test them fairly their shutter speed/aperture should be same, instead of ISOs.
Sony A55 Tamron 18-200 | Minolta 50 1.4 | Tamron 17-50 | Sony 35 1.8 | Tamron 90 | Sony 55-300 | Tamron 60 | Sony 16-50 | Sony 16-105 | Samyang 85 1.4 | Sigma 10-20 | Sigma 50 2.8 | Sony RX100 II 1.8 | Photo Against Photo

User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3716
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:43 pm

1/30 sec shutter aperture is f3.5
I've done another quick and dirty test, it seems that the Fuji is giving about half a stop less than the Sony at matched shutter speeds in today's test, so I don't doubt they are fudging the ISO's more than other makers (possibly not as much as Olympus though)

I've done a quick test with the A77 v the Fuji I will do a more complete one when I get the chance

This one was a DR one, I will try one at base ISO shortly (base ISO on the Fuji is ISO 200 not 100)

fuji 02.JPG
fuji 02.JPG (57.8 KiB) Viewed 4398 times


Just a quick and dirty test same exposures, as said about half a stop difference to my eyes
Anyway I pulled both images apart in raw with a monster +5 EV, I then pulled the highlight sliders right back to see what the story was there

fuji.JPG
fuji.JPG (68.25 KiB) Viewed 4398 times



crop.JPG
crop.JPG (108 KiB) Viewed 4398 times




Fudging ISO values aside, the Fuji sensor is something else in a league of it's own in terms of latitude in raw highlight and shadow end
I noted that there is a clipping point in black though on the Fuji not sure if this is an issue probably not the Sony lets you dig up shadows but they get messy

I suspect the A77 will do better at ISO 100 I might do a test head to head on that but I can't set the Fuji in raw to ISO 100 only 200

User avatar
bakubo
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 5714
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bakubo » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:23 pm

bfitzgerald wrote:1/30 sec shutter aperture is f3.5


Are you saying that the photos in your OP were both at that exposure?

Was there a typo in your OP about the A57? I see that all the other examples are showing the A77. Seems like the A57 with the 16mp sensor like the Fuji would be the better to compare with.

User avatar
bakubo
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 5714
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bakubo » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:25 pm

bfitzgerald wrote:Both ISO 3200 pushed 2/3 of a stop in raw no luminance NR colour NR 8 for both


The results remind me of my Canon G16.

User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3716
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:08 pm

Exposure on the first was the same on the A57 and Fuji but I pulled up the shadows a bit more as the A57 is giving more exposure per set ISO value. If anything that puts the Fuji at a disadvantage

I used the A77 on the second one as I felt it's got slightly (and I use the word slightly) better DR than the A57 but the differences are not big between the A57 and A77 I did extensive tests on both and again they meter a bit differently and matching real exposures at high ISO there isn't a lot of difference it's just the A77 by default gives even less exposure than the A57 and thus many (including myself) came to the conclusion the high ISO sucks, it does if you let it underexpose at high ISO and then pull it up in post (though you can get decent lower res shots) Both the A57 and A77 are decent enough at high ISO "if" you give them a "Nikon" style aggressive metering ie good exposure.

Details wise I saw little difference between the A57 and A77 a slight nod at times to the A77 but it's not a major one. I'll probably wait for the A mount to Fuji X adapter to turn up then I can use the same lenses to see what's going on there.

All 3 meter differently even the X10 I have will again meter different to all the other cameras, ditto on the old Dynax 5d's I still have. It's not that easy to determine what models have accurate ISO settings most fudge them to a degree, I suspect Fuji are more than most (though possibly not as much as Olympus are) DxO didn't test the Xtrans sensor (and they didn't properly test the EXR sensor either in half res) I don't doubt their ISO measurements are fairly good even if some of the other tests are a bit open to debate.

So far the only thing I can say about the Xtrans sensor is that it does seem to have a very very good latitude in raw both highlights and shadows, not that I am in any way unhappy with the Sony sensor it's good all round (bar chroma noise) likewise I have a lot of time for the X10's EXR sensor. I tested the Fuji X20 and I wasn't overly impressed the DR was not a patch on the X10 Xtrans doesn't seem to work well in the smaller sensor format I got shot of the X20 fairly quickly as the X10 suits my needs far better. But APS-C wise so far it's pretty impressive even taking into account the iffy ISO settings (no base ISO of 100 and raw stops at 6400 for some reason)

I should try to do a bit DR "shootout" but from field use I can say the EXR on the X10 has by far better DR than any other sensor in a compact camera not even remotely close on that, if shot in 6mp EXR raw you have frankly barmy DR available and I think it's close to the Sony DR wise it might even beat it out I have to run them head to head. Xtrans wise I need more field time with it some say it mushes up details in landscape green areas, hard to say on that one at the moment. It might be the best APS-C sensor out there, I have to play with it more to see what's happening. None of this makes the Sony's bad, frankly after using some Canon DSLR's I'd say both of the other sensors humiliate Canon at least in terms of DR, I'm not ready to call the Xtrans "as good as a full frame sensor" but I will test it some more and use it at an event on Friday, nothing really beats some real world stuff for testing.

I'm not about to invest in a massive bunch of Fuji stuff either there are some disadvantages for certain flash system isn't really there, no IBIS..cost of "some" of the Fuji lenses is high (some are OK price wise some are pricey enough)

classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 929
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby classiccameras » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:52 pm

Good report Barry, I leave my X-10 on EXR High Dynamic range. Jpeg, although it drops to 6/8 MP, the end product is the best I have seen from a compact, not to mention the Fuji colours which challenge Olympus. I just don't get the reviews of the X-20 saying the new Xtrans sensor is better and it produces sharper images. No it does not.

With the exception of a few operational gripes, they got it right with the X-10 and I see no real reason to move to the X-20 or 30 even with the better OVF.
Its ironic but that good old 12mp sweet spot on a high end compact scores again.
The A-57 is now beginning to show that it can stand the test of time and I see no reason to change it.

User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3716
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:42 am

Well I used both and the X20 whilst Fuji did improve some areas (the VF is better with the information in it) the sensor can't hold a candle to the X10's EXR one
It just blows out or blacks up shadows like any other "normal compact" in non hard light it's ok but I didn't see much reason to entertain it

The X10 can be set to 6mp DR 400% and you'll rarely have a problem, shoot raw and it will deliver even more but I like the jpegs out of camera too, the X20 jpegs were not good.

Having tried this APS-C X Trans camera I will say this the smaller sensor is a different beast to the APS-C one. Onto the Big sensor Fuji a few odd things the cam will ramp right up high ISO even with flash which is dumb (ISO 6400 I've seen) I'd limit it to something more sensible (1600)
I'll have to wait until the A Mount to X adapter arrives to see how they combine some of Fuji's lenses are quite good (the 16-50mm kit is quite impressive optics wise) but some are simply stupidly priced. I can't see me moving to Fuji but I will play around a bit it's a sensor where I can put a lens but it's not a bad camera actually quite good in most ways

classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 929
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:52 am

Like wise, I cannot see me moving to Fuji as a system camera mainly because of cost, especially lenses. My 2 favourite compacts are the G-16 and X-10, both are excellent in their own ways but the Fuji has the edge with Jpegs.

User avatar
bakubo
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 5714
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bakubo » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:22 pm

I didn't know that both of you guys had the X10. It has a 2/3" sensor, right? That qualifies as a tiny sensor for this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4195

Please post some X10 photos! Also, the G16 has a tiny sensor.
Last edited by bakubo on Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

classiccameras
Viceroy
Posts: 929
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby classiccameras » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:43 pm

I haven't mastered posting on the forum yet, but Barry may oblige.

Yes, tiny sensors but not quite as tiny as your average compact. I don't see the problem unless you want to blow up pics.

Xtrans V Sony Bayer CMOS, its hard to say which is best, it depends I guess on the type of photography you do.
I think over all Sony wins.
I just use my X-10 as a holiday snapper as its small and has an excellent zoom lens.

User avatar
bfitzgerald
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 3716
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 pm

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:02 pm

I'll dig around for a few X10 shots.
I'm not unhappy with either sensor the Sony does have it's chroma noise issues but subject to decent exposure at high ISO and a bit of processing you won't have any problems

Bit early to say on the X=Trans at least the APS-C sensor it's "different" and does seem to have a lot of room to move, but like I said I'm not about to ditch A mount for Fuji X, they do have some nice ideas and the system is growing truth is I'm not really a mirror less kinda guy despite having used a few now.

User avatar
bakubo
Subsuming Vortex of Brilliance
Posts: 5714
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Xtrans v Sony Bayer CMOS

Unread postby bakubo » Sun May 31, 2015 3:08 pm

Read this today and it fits in with this thread.

Noise for Headroom: Fuji's X-Trans Sensor

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/05/noise-for-headroom-fujis-x-trans-sensor.html


Return to “Alpha E-Mount system”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron