Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

For discussion of the E and FE mount mirrorless system
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bfitzgerald
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Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

This seems as good a place to put this as any.

Last year I acquired an X-M1 camera and 16-50mm lens to play about a bit the results images wise I put up on another thread. However once I had picked up the A mount to Fuji X adapter it became very obvious very quickly that a lack of viewfinder was a very significant handicap unless you were using a pancake prime (it was OK with the kit lens but bigger lenses are just a no go hello super camera shake) I also discovered you could not set the min shutter speed above 1/200 sec and the focus magnify was limited to one magnification.

I decided to offload the X-M1, and picked up an X-E1 ex demo 12 months warranty and an extra discount seemed like a cost effective way to experiment.
This slightly older Fuji does have a bit of charm a pretty solid body (not as tough as the pro but a step up over the entry ones) Very much a back to basics camera in a lot of ways old school shutter speed dial, no scene modes or other gimmicks (not even face detection) it does have a panoramic mode, double exposure and the usual jpeg styles/filters and a bank to store user settings but it's remarkably feature thin just the basics.

I also used a few lenses and borrowed a few to try out just to see how I liked them. I have to be honest in that I was considering Fuji for an alternative system, but I have come to the conclusion I have very little to gain by doing that.

Things I liked/like about Fuji

The sensors are good different but good in their own ways tonality and dynamic range as good as you can get, 16mp with no AA filter really not much in it v 24mp I'd be surprised if anyone was struggling to get excellent prints off this sensor

Retro feel/novelty value, whilst this isn't required it is nice to try something a bit "different" this doesn't apply to the entry X bodies as much (they have less controls and don't have the styling) something a bit unusual and "slow me down" pace wise about them

It is useful to be able to use an adapter for the A Mount lenses it's an additional low cost body that slips in the bag if needed, granted manual focus (not much of a problem) aperture control is a bit of guesswork but you should have an idea how lenses perform

Fuji's peaking isn't as good as Sony's but it's fine for manual focus (and focus magnify)

The 16-50mm kit lens is actually really good sharpness wise, close to the Tamron 17-50mm not quite up there but not far off bar the obvious lack of speed weak min focus distance it is a very good optic for a kit lens


Stuff that just wan't my cup of tea

Any ILC maker putting out an entry body with no viewfinder is smoking something a bit dodgy! Honestly it's OK at best with a small tiny lens but absolute disaster land for anything remotely bigger or longer it makes no sense and they're fooling themselves here I think if you want to use the back LCD fine but to have no choice is dumb. I quickly tired of the rear LCD on the M1 (applies to A1 too) nice swivel but just not practical for hand holding

Fuji's min focus distance sucks, plain and simple across many lenses I tried. Not used the 1:2 macro lens but almost all their lenses have below average min focus distances the 16-50mm has a newer version out that improves this a bit, but many new lenses even the 16-55mm F2.8 are nothing special either. 27mm pancake neat little lens not fast enough really and bad min focus distance.

Battery life well put it like this SLT's are not amazing but you can halve that at least with the X bodies (and most other similar bodies) whilst 2 batteries will probably do for a space body if you were using it as your main system you'd want at least 5/6 just to be on the safe side

Lack of IBIS, this is less of an issue with some lenses (that have IS aka 18-55mm and 16-50mm etc) but you really notice the absence with primes and the adapted lenses. If I take into account the near 1 stop high ISO fudging (ie 3200 on the Fuji is near to 1600 on my Sony bodies) I've gained nothing for low light not really probably lost a little.

I think it was a serious mistake for Fuji to release a 16-55mm F2.8 without IS

Cost, if I had to replicate the system in X mount it would prove costly and many lenses are not available, though you could keep some and buy others I don't see any real incentive here

Flash, Fuji are way behind here no HSS no proper wireless flash either it's promised to arrive but when?

You can set a min shutter speed but it's not focal length aware a choice of both would be best (or which one you wanted)


Part II to follow
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

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Moving on to the X-E1 model

EVF wise it's about the same size as the A57 (maybe a hair smaller) though has the resolution of the A77
It is quite different to both Fuji have a system of "half press" the shutter and the "real" exposure is shown it does not show a continuous feed of the exposure unless you hit the half press, this is a bit odd seems more of a problem in lower light levels.

The Fuji EVF does lag quite a bit in low light, it's fine in normal light this was addressed in the updated model
But there were quite a few firmware updates most of them genuinely useful.

The main problem?
In ye times past rangefinder cameras had pretty tiny lenses granted manual focus and aperture. There seems to be (looking around at many makers) an emphasis towards bigger heavier lenses. This doesn't really sit that well with the streamlined body of the Fuji, it's better than the M1, but it's not ideal using the camera for a long period of time and things get even worse with a flash on the top. Now there are some small primes, and I see a compact Nissin flash around new model out.

I have tried the X-T1 and that improves things a bit, and you can get a grip for it but still I have this "thin body" feeling and I yearn to hold a DSLR (even the A57 is fine size wise being not "too small"

Another area I noted I'm not overly impressed with Fuji's bokeh not something I'd mention but some of the lenses that I consider "not bad but nothing special" were head and shoulders above the fuji's for this area, once you start moving into classic lenses like the beercan and 90mm Tamron Fuji have nothing that can touch these lenses for blur quality at least from what I can see. They do have some sharp glass, but sharp isn't always enough. A strange slightly distracting "outline effect" on some Fuji lenses it's quite subtle but to my eye it's distracting and not pleasant.

So anyway that's the main thrust for me, body wise ILC's can be "too small" the lenses are quite expensive too. I think they're a decent "add on" for DSLR users, not convinced it's a viable option for me. My camera bag would be a little bit lighter (bodies wise) but not really lenses unless you were very specific and hand picked the smaller primes/pancake lenses.

I've yet to try any of the newer Sony bodies I may do at some point I'd be surprised if I felt much different being honest.
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bakubo »

Maybe time to give the Fuji X-T1 a try?

If you want some nice, small lenses then these are some I have and I like them all:

Olympus 9mm f8 fisheye bodycap lens (even thinner than pancake)
Panasonic 14mm f2.5
Panasonic 20mm f1.7
Olympus 25mm f1.8
Olympus 45mm f1.8
Olympus 9-18mm f4-5.6

I have others too. A bit larger, and I don't have them, but I have seen them and they are still small and nice:

Panasonic 12-32mm f3.5-5.6 pancake
Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8
Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8
Olympus 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 pancake

I think this is a pretty much complete list of m4/3 lenses along with their photo:

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lens.html
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Henry I did try the X-T1 it's a nice body but again it's got that "thin feel"

Sometimes you just can't beat a real handgrip
I have tried a few micro 4/3 bodies a few not many and they do have some nice small lenses
However the problem comes with the 2x crop factor a lot of my lenses cease to be very useful or oddball equivalent focal lengths not all but a fair few

The obvious next experiment in a FF ILC
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

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bfitzgerald wrote: The obvious next experiment in a FF ILC
you can get the original A7 for 1300$ new (probably a bit more in EU/UK). Fuji X camera series are nice -beautiful colors. Fujinon lenses are great. But they are not as good as APS Sony mirrorless sensor and AF wise. And the the new Bionx processor do really make a difference. I guess at some point other manufacturers will catch up with Sony, even surpass the. Til now this tech is just ahead anybody else.
AF wise, M4/3 is one step ahead, and probably always be: it is easier to gather light to their small sensor than for the FF.
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bakubo »

Yeah, if a major goal is to attach old manual focus lenses to a body then I would not recommend m4/3. You can do it and it has focus peaking, but the crop factor for many lenses makes it less attractive than FF or even APS-C. An m4/3 body makes the most sense with the small m4/3 lenses which also allow full functionality.

If you are talking about A-mount lenses though then I wouldn't consider anything other than either a Sony A-mount camera or a Sony mirrorless that allows the use of the full-function Sony adapter. If you don't want to use a Sony A-mount body then the A7II with IBIS would be a logical choice. Personally, I wouldn't want to give up IS like you would have to do with the bodies before the A7II.
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

Nikon and Pentax and rumour has it the latest Olympus OMD EM5 use Sony sensors, Nikon seem to get more out of the sensor than Sony do. However, some Nikon models are now using Toshiba sensors.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

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classiccameras wrote:Nikon and Pentax and rumour has it the latest Olympus OMD EM5 use Sony sensors, Nikon seem to get more out of the sensor than Sony do. However, some Nikon models are now using Toshiba sensors.

Pete

I think the D7100 used a toshiba but I saw banding on some shots even lower ISO that would be a major turn off I can live with a touch a very high ISO levels but not low ones. Nikon do get a bit more out of them, though they have a slightly different look (somewhat more yellowish) not just WB that tends to be a little warmer than Canon and Sony. The differences are not big but I can see some maybe I'm very tuned into small hues and variations.

Onto the ILC experiment not a waste of time but I'm in no hurry to dump my SLR gear the X10 meets my needs for travelling around with one camera, the 18-135mm and A57 for a one hit solution day trip lens. I'm not sure I need the X-E1 being honest in fact I don't but then I probably wouldn't get a lot for it I might keep it I may sell it or try to. The Fuji X isn't for me it's good but the handling is compromised on these ILC models esp with more meaty lenses it's a flashback to the 60/70's era of small grips (progress well maybe not) The A7 is pretty cheap, at a bargain price it's possibly worth a look if only to put the FF lenses in front of a FF sensor, I'm not in rush to get one though it's very much a might do later on exercise.

More than anything I learnt one thing Fuji can make a sharp lens/lenses but the rendering takes a back seat to A mount glass the look I love just isn't there, though the adapter does mean I can combine a Fuji sensor (which is different) with those lenses. They're also pricey some of them

Why Sony couldn't release a well priced plastic body FF body for A mount remains a mystery I'm perfectly fine with that cut out all the jazz and gimmicks just bash it out at a nice price.
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

Good points Barry, I still think the overall IQ from my 57/37 and small number of Sony & Minolta lenses is at least as good as the other brands and in some instances better especially for colour depth and DR. Fuji as far as I'm concerned has shot themselves in the foot as regards the X-30, Its Jpeg out put is miserable and nothing since the X-10 has been better. The X-10 remains my favourite holiday camera with a superb Jpeg out put.
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by pakodominguez »

pakodominguez wrote:
bfitzgerald wrote: The obvious next experiment in a FF ILC
you can get the original A7 for 1300$ new (probably a bit more in EU/UK).
I saw today the A7 is at 1198 $
no one tempted?
sure?
;-)
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Problem remains one of handling and I think ILC's leave much to be desired here the A7 might be worth a look it's cheap enough but that problem won't go away
It's a massively overlooked area and it's made even worse with the oversized lens designs of late

Very strange
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bakubo »

I'll say it again, if your goal is to use A-mount lenses then an A-mount body is the way to go. Get yourself a Sony DSLR or DSLT and your lenses will work best on them. You know you prefer these sorts of camera systems so why all the bother about changing?

Forget about all the mirrorless stuff. It just isn't for you and that's okay. Stop trying to force yourself into something you don't want. It isn't necessary and can't satisfy you. Stick with what does satisfy. Life is too short to be churning systems and agonizing, IMO.

So often an outsider can see the problem more clearly so I hope this is helpful for you.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Henry my intention was never to "give up" A mount but like a lot of people I try other things to see how they stack up and that includes lenses and other areas not just the bodies.

I am and I admit it quite narrow minded and more than a bit stubborn but I've "reached out" and tried a few different things. I was never "anti mirrorless" it just seemed to offer relatively few advantages and brought a few extra issues to the table too. Honestly the marketing behind ILC's is ** of the highest order I'm being blunt now and spending a bit of time working with an ILC I can say that with confidence unless you are a small prime shooter and don't want zooms we have time warped back 30 years in handling to the era of uncomfortable bodies.

Not to repeat things but cost is a problem be it native E or X mount prices are high for those lenses relative to DSLR systems
Only the bodies are smaller, but with the problem of smaller battery life and less comfort, many of the lenses are as big if not bigger than DSLR systems (bar micro 4/3 I'm talking blow for blow sensor size matched)

I've reached the conclusion that "most" DSLR users are better off adding a decent larger sensor "compact" to their bag and not an ILC system. That's my view others may be different. Mirrorless is far less exciting than the hype suggests lenses are compromised (esp larger sensors) in design your bag won't be that much lighter and you'll probably spend more money building an ILC system (unless you buy quite a few MF lenses or re-use older lenses with an adapter)
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

Unread post by classiccameras »

Just read some where on the NET that Canon are the only camera company still making a profit although much reduced.

Pete
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Mirror-less experiences and ramblings

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classiccameras wrote:Just read some where on the NET that Canon are the only camera company still making a profit although much reduced.

Pete

Well last info I read was Canon was making less money but still a decent profit. Other makers are mixed they are making profits but not nearly as vast as they were the big sales days are very much over. Fuji have slashed their bridge and compact range which is a shame they had some decent superzoom models in both segments, other makers have trimmed back the line up esp non DSLR stuff

I think some of them view ILC's as a way to try to make more money by attacking a newer market segment, hence the inflated prices on optics. I've said before relative to other consumer electronics cameras are vastly overpriced (and so are lenses) and they got very lazy with the non DSLR's not giving people bigger sensors sticking to the tiny ones no shocks many users gave up and just used their smart phone. There is still money to be made in some product areas, honestly I'd be very happy if the market collapsed even more it might force them to bring down prices even more. Golden rule of electronics time= cheaper seen again in every segment from TV's to audio and computers. Cameras are basically electronic devices they are mature and yet you are still looking at over £1000 for a FF DSLR, they should be costing about £500 at most (for an entry FF body)

I think some makers like Fuji are kidding themselves trying to sell an APS-C body for £900 odd, ditto micro 4/3 prices and enthusiast level APS-C DSLR bodies there market is gone, dried up people just don't update nearly as much as they used to not much reason good high ISO, good DR tons of pixels why bother?
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