Corel bought out Bibble

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twm47099
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

Unread post by twm47099 »

UrsaMajor wrote:
twm47099 wrote:One reason I was interested in LR4 was based on some comparisons on DYXUM of high ISO shots processed with the raw engine from LR2 vs the new one in LR4 -- essentially much less noise while still retaining fine detail (although the change in exposure adjusting controls doesn't impress me.)
Take a look at Lightroom 3. That is where the dramatic improvement in processing was made, IMO, and LR3 runs fine on XP. I admit that it looks as if there are also some nice improvements between LR3 and LR4, but I don't think that these are in the area in which you seem to be most concerned.

Personally, I am also debating what to do, as my computer runs on XP and I have no other reason to move to Windows 7 at this time - although I also see no compelling reason to prefer Bibble over Lightroom, so switching is not attractive to me at this time.

With best wishes,
- Tom -
I guess I was a little confused. The comparison on Dyxum was between process 2003 and the new one 2012, not between 2010 and 2012. I am using LR3 with process 2010 (and I did notice a big improvement when I upgraded to LR3.)

So without a comparison of process 2010 and 2012 I'll just be content with what I have.

One thing I don't like about LR3 (and LR1 and rawshooter before that) is that there is a blocky sub pattern in the converted raws. It's not very prominent, but it is there and capture sharpening can really bring it out. Since I haven't printed directly from LR, but instead export as TIFFS to Paintshop Pro X2 for final processing, sharpening, and printing, I wonder if the LR sharpening for printing makes the blocky pattern noticeable. I never noticed that blocky sub pattern when I converted my dimage 7 or KM7D raws using dpreview (but they both show it with LR and rawshooter.)

tom
twm47099
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

Unread post by twm47099 »

LR does retain the history going back to the beginning and shows it whenever you reopen the file to work on it. But it even retains all of your trials. So when I work with the exposure controls and try a little of this and a little of that and then finally decide on the mid point, the history shows each of those steps, unless I'm careful to undo each as I go along. Same with all of the other develop functions such as HSL, sharpening, profiles, NR etc. As the history file grows, it takes longer for LR to do new steps, and reloading a file having a bloated history can take some time.

One thing I do like is that I can take an image I worked on and later decide I want to process a second version entirely differently (e.g. B&W). I just create a virtual copy, click 'reset' and clear history and start processing. Since everything is in the sidecar, I don't end up with multiple large Tiffs or multiple copies of the raw file.

tom
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bakubo
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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twm47099 wrote:LR does retain the history going back to the beginning and shows it whenever you reopen the file to work on it. But it even retains all of your trials. So when I work with the exposure controls and try a little of this and a little of that and then finally decide on the mid point, the history shows each of those steps, unless I'm careful to undo each as I go along. Same with all of the other develop functions such as HSL, sharpening, profiles, NR etc. As the history file grows, it takes longer for LR to do new steps, and reloading a file having a bloated history can take some time.
It sounds like LR works a bit differently than PS/ACR that David is using. With ASP the history is lost when you leave the program, but all the changes and settings are remembered and are set properly when you reopen the same file. With this sort of program I haven't yet thought of any utility to having the history maintained since all the settings are there to be seen. With a destructive type of editor such as PS, PSE, and PSP it would be nice for the history to be maintained though. Can you think of some important use for maintaining history in LR?
twm47099 wrote: One thing I do like is that I can take an image I worked on and later decide I want to process a second version entirely differently (e.g. B&W). I just create a virtual copy, click 'reset' and clear history and start processing. Since everything is in the sidecar, I don't end up with multiple large Tiffs or multiple copies of the raw file.
Yes, it seems that ASP can do this too.

I am still slowly evaluating ASP. Since, like LR, it is a combination of a raw developer, non-destructive editor, and DAM there are many considerations. I have mostly been looking at the non-destructive editing and DAM stuff so far so I will need to look at the raw developing too. Not being forced to use DAM though is a plus in my case, I think. Also, the ability to do local edits using ASP is also an advantage over LR. I may download the LR 3 trial too, but the things that put me off right away is the forced DAM, no local editing, and the download is 234mb whereas the ASP download is 33mb. With very similar functionality it would appear that LR is very bloated. LR 4 beta is 411mb!!! Possibly there is debugging code in it since it is a beta and maybe the developers compiled it with symbols turned on (for use with a symbolic debugger) so I hope that LR 4 will turn out to be much smaller when released. ASP is supposed to be faster too. Here in Japan my broadband connection is surprisingly slow so downloads (even youtube) take time and a 234mb download really would. LR 4 is in beta so I may just wait until it is released to give it a try instead of LR 3.

Maybe I will start a thread and document my thoughts and discoveries as I evaluate ASP for my use.
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UrsaMajor
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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bakubo wrote:Correction: I checked again and when using the catalog/db it behaves the same as it does when in file system mode. In either case all the changes are saved and when you restart ASP and open an image you worked on before all the changes are shown on it and all the sliders/options reflect what you had previously chosen. The history window is empty though in both cases. The history window only shows the sequence of operations that you have currently performed during this session. That seems to be intentional and isn't really an issue, I think. I don't know how LR handles this situation or if it even has something analogous in the operation. I have never tried LR because it forces you to use the catalog/db. Anyway, I am still exploring ASP and will report back as I find things.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Lightroom forces you to use their system, and prevents using a folder arrangement of your choice. The closest thing to this that I can think of is that once you have "imported" your files into Lightroom (from the folders into which you put them and in which they remain), if you wish to move any files or folders to new locations, you should preferably do so using Lightroom's file manager. That will enable Lightroom to automatically remember where a given file is found. If you make a move outside of Lightroom, it will "lose" that file - although there is a simple tool in LR that lets it search for the "missing" file and re-enter its location in its database catalog.

You are not forced in any way to use the key-wording and meta-data capabilities of LR, although I find them a very convenient tool for tasks such as retrieving all photos in which both of my granddaughters appear, regardless of when or where the images were taken. The database aspect is just one of the tools available, and you are not forced to use it, just as you are not forced to use the capabilities in the Print Module that will allow you to put several prints of different sizes on a single sheet.

One thing that I like is that LR will automatically create a back-up file of its catalog at an interval of your choosing - weekly, daily, or every time it's used. I have LR do a back-up every time, unless I have done no editing and have only opened LR for another purpose - in which case I click on a button to tell LR to skip the back-up this time. Weekly, I back up the catalog and its back-up copy to two different external drives, along with the actual images. My "original" files are on a RAID 5 system, so I figure that I am unlikely to loose much - if any - work in between back-ups to the external drives.

In regard to keeping a history of the editing, Lightroom keeps that in the catalog and can also - as an option - create XMP files for each image. The difference is that the data in the XMP file provides only the "end state" of your editing, while the catalog has the entire history. Personally, I don't bother to generate XMP files, because of the redundant copies of the catalog that I mentioned above, and the additional information in the catalog that is lacking in the XMP files.

With best wishes,
- Tom -
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bakubo
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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UrsaMajor wrote:I'm not sure where you got the idea that Lightroom forces you to use their system, and prevents using a folder arrangement of your choice.
Hmm, I will need to investigate this more then. I can't tell you how many times I have read that you must import your photos into the LR catalog, but you are saying that isn't necessary. You can just have a file system view of folders as they exist on your hd and then open files, work on them, and all the changes are recorded in an XMP file? I have seen complaints several times from people who said you can't do that with LR, but if you can then that is good to know. ASP allows you to work by importing images into a catalog and thereby getting the benefits of that or just opening files directly on the hd. You seem to be saying that LR is the same. Good to know.

I am still trying to understand how these sorts of programs work so it is likely that I still am misunderstanding some things. :)
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UrsaMajor
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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bakubo wrote:
UrsaMajor wrote:I'm not sure where you got the idea that Lightroom forces you to use their system, and prevents using a folder arrangement of your choice.
Hmm, I will need to investigate this more then. I can't tell you how many times I have read that you must import your photos into the LR catalog, but you are saying that isn't necessary. You can just have a file system view of folders as they exist on your hd and then open files, work on them, and all the changes are recorded in an XMP file? I have seen complaints several times from people who said you can't do that with LR, but if you can then that is good to know.
I suspect that the confusion arises from the terminology of "import", and also from the capability of LR to transfer files from your card or camera to your computer while adding them to its catalog - including optional renaming at the same time.

Personally, even though it may be less efficient, I transfer the new files myself with Explorer, creating new folders in a structural arrangement that I prefer. At that instant, LR knows nothing about the new files, so I then start LR and go to the "Import" button in the Library module. I select the new folder (or an existing one into which I have added new files), and LR creates thumbnails of all the files in that folder. I can then select which files to add to the catalog, although I normally just add all of them to take advantage of some of the tools in LR such as the side-by-side comparison of two files.

During the import process, you have the option to add keywords that are common to all the files you are importing, and after importing you can select subsets with Ctrl-click or Shift-click and add other keywords to the database for those specific files.

BTW, there is one aspect of the import process that is not well thought out, IMO. You start the import process by clicking on the Import button on the bottom left of the screen and then go through the process of defining the location from which you are going to import, selecting the files you want to import, adding the appropriate keywords, and defining where you want the files to be stored. In my case, this is where they are already located, but if the files are being transferred from a camera or card it would be an existing folder or one that you tell LR to create.

At that point you now click on another button, located on the bottom right of the screen. This button is ALSO named "Import", and I have a friend on the East Coast who literally wasted hours on multiple futile attempts to import files because when she read the manual's instructions to "Click on the Import button to finish the process", she clicked on the Import button on the LEFT side of the screen. IMO, the buttons should be named "Start Import Process" and "Finish Import Process" or something similar.

With best wishes,
- Tom -
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bakubo
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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Okay, it sounds like you are confirming that LR requires you to import your photos into it. ASP allows that way of working or just opening files as you want them using the file system.

With my slow internet connection I have been reluctant to bother downloading the LR trial especially since I knew, or thought I knew, that LR enforces only one way of accessing and working on your photos. A few minutes ago though I recalled that when I bought PSE 9 a year or so ago there was a LR trial CD in the box. As it happens, of the things I brought with me to Japan one is that Adobe box and sure enough the LR 3.2/ACR 6.2 CD was there. I just now installed it and will try it out. I think the current version is 3.6, but I don't want to download that so I will hope nothing significant has changed that would invalidate my evaluation.
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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bakubo wrote:
bakubo wrote:When using file system mode it only shows the current adjustments you are making in the history window so if you exit ASP and restart it and then open the file you worked on previously the photo will have all the adjustments you did to it, but when you open the history window it is empty. That isn't such a big deal in some ways since all the adjustments you made are reflected in the image and all of the adjustments are shown in the various slider positions, etc. so clearly it does remember them, but they just aren't shown in the history window -- maybe this is just a minor oversight/bug. I need to think on this a bit more to see if this is important or not, but it is annoying. I created a small catalog (db) and when using that it does remembers all the previous adjustments and they are shown in the history window.
Correction: I checked again and when using the catalog/db it behaves the same as it does when in file system mode. In either case all the changes are saved and when you restart ASP and open an image you worked on before all the changes are shown on it and all the sliders/options reflect what you had previously chosen. The history window is empty though in both cases. The history window only shows the sequence of operations that you have currently performed during this session. That seems to be intentional and isn't really an issue, I think. I don't know how LR handles this situation or if it even has something analogous in the operation. I have never tried LR because it forces you to use the catalog/db. Anyway, I am still exploring ASP and will report back as I find things.
Correction: I was right the first time. When using the library mode where photos have been imported ASP retains the history even when you exit the program. When you are using the file system mode it only retains the history for the current session. I was reading the documentation this morning and that is what it says ASP does so I checked again and the documentation is right. I am sorry for the confusion. I was right the first time and wrong in my earlier correction. :) I think I must have forgotten to select the catalog tag when I checked and was still using the file system tab. In this respect it is the same as LR.

I still am not sure how much utility keeping the history is in this sort of non-destructive editor, but it is there and might be useful sometimes.
twm47099
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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bakubo wrote:
I still am not sure how much utility keeping the history is in this sort of non-destructive editor, but it is there and might be useful sometimes.
I used it a few times. For example the first time I convert and edit a raw, I might have to straighten the image, de-spot the image, and make basic exposure adjustments. Then I start doing my other edits.

When I come back next time, I may decide to switch to B&W, and apply different NR to the B&W image. I can take the previous image that I had processed, create another virtual copy and go back to the step where I had finished despotting the image, or back to my basic exposure adjustments and get rid of the later things. That way I don't have to go through a possibly tedious re-despotting.

Its not a feature I use all the time. But for the few I have, it was a time saver. With a destructive editor (like PSPX2) I have had many more times where I wished that the history was saved upon reopening a file.

tom
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UrsaMajor
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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bakubo wrote:I still am not sure how much utility keeping the history is in this sort of non-destructive editor, but it is there and might be useful sometimes.
Personally, I have found it to be a big help for some of the things I do - although some of those would not be of use to a typical user.

For example: I often shoot pictures for the monthly newsletter of a car club to which I belong. We produce a color electronic version and a B&W print version. I open the files in Lightroom and go through the actions that will be common to color and B&W versions, such as correcting alignment, cropping, etc.

If necessary, I will adjust factors such as the exposure, contrast, and white balance to get a nice color version. I then create a Virtual Copy and use it for tweaking the B&W version so it will print well - since some colors have very similar gray-scale tones. Of course, there are other ways to do the same thing, but this does what I want with a minimum of work and a minimum of disk space occupied by the end results.

With best wishes,
-Tom -
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

Unread post by jcoffin »

Hi Tom,

AfterShot Pro inherited a "Versions" feature from Bibble that's explicitly intended to support these kinds of situations.

In typical use, you start with a raw file as the "Master". When you want special processing for a particular purpose, you can create a new version, starting either from the master or from the current version. From there, you can edit/adjust each version separately, and each maintains its own settings and such.

To go with that, it has a stacking feature that specifies how thumbnails will be shown -- when you stack them, all the version show as one thumbnail, with a number to show how many versions it represents. When/if you want to view or edit a particular one, you can "unroll the stack" them to show a separate thumbnail for each version.

There are a few weaknesses to this: one is that it only works along with the catalogs (i.e., you have to import pictures, about like in LR, before it works). Another is that the default key combination to roll/unroll a stack is rather clumsy (control-shift-k). Yet another is that it doesn't generate versions automatically -- e.g., if you shot in raw+jpeg, it doesn't automatically recognize the .ARW file as the master and the .JPG file as a version of it.

On the other hand, it will let you do some types of processing during import, so it may be possible to automate this step that way. For better or worse, I use catalogs little enough that I'm not sure about how much you can automate during import.
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UrsaMajor
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

Unread post by UrsaMajor »

jcoffin wrote:AfterShot Pro inherited a "Versions" feature from Bibble that's explicitly intended to support these kinds of situations.
My intention above was not to advocate Lightroom over Aftershot Pro, as I do not know enough about ASP to make a valid comparison.

I was just responding to Henry's skepticism about the value of history in a non-destructive editor. IMO, perceived value is an individual decision that will probably depend upon how the individual uses the product, as with many other things in life.

With best wishes,
- Tom -
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

Unread post by jcoffin »

Oh, I didn't intend to advocate for either one, or anything like that either. I posted primarily to point out that the scenario you described is apparently pretty common -- common enough, anyway, that somebody is thinking in terms of supporting it directly.

Whether that direct support provides any real advantage or not is a whole separate question, and quite honestly, one I doubt I can answer. I've been comparing LR 4 to ASP 1 (and Bibble 5) for a couple weeks now, but 1) I've used Bibble for years, so I'm undoubtedly biased, and 2) I haven't really used that particularly feature enough to say much about how well it really works anyway.
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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Henry,

I like the comparisons you've been doing, and hope that you continue to post about it. I'm not much of a PP guy, a bit of exposure correction, mostly. Every once in a while I have that one shot that i HAVE to have and I blew it, so I try my best to rescue it. Otherwise, if it looks pretty much like I remember it, it's good.

I've been using Raw Therapee lately as my RAW converter, and I like it quite a bit. Plus, you can't complain about the price! However, it doesn't like 32 bit Windows, so I have better luck with it not crashing on my Win7 machine at work.

What we really need is a challenge of a different type - I guess I'll have to put one up - where we get people to donate some good and some blown but recoverable RAWs and let everyone PP them in their own way, documenting what they used and the methodology to get a good/fantastic print.

Dusty
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Re: Corel bought out Bibble

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twm47099 wrote:I was disappointed when Adobe released LR 4 Beta that it only works on Vista and later OS. My main photo processing systems are both XP, and I'm not ready to upgrade and reinstall all my software/hardware or buy a 3rd desktop system...
Tom,
I believe that LR4 works on XP, the problem is that Adobe do not support "customer service" for XP. As far as your LR4 runs OK, you don't need to upgrade to WIN7. Just give it a try.
Pako
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