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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:12 am 
Viceroy

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The d3200 sensor is not from Sony for sure, its layout is totally different from the Sony 24Mp APS; and it closely resembles the Aptina 16Mp APS one.
And that sensor is worse than the Sony one in the Nex7, it shows rather strong 'salt and pepper' kind of noise at higher ISO's even after the rather strong raw filtering that Nikon applies at raw cooking.

At the same time, the 24Mp in the Nex7 is not noisier than the 16Mp used in 5N/6. The 7 had a problem with deep shadows being tinted pink and that tint was also varying from shot to shot and/or between camera restarts (same prob as with the 16Mp a55 has). That was due to incorrect black level subtraction done dynamically at raw preprocessing in camera. The problem appears to have been eliminated with the recent FW update, and now the Nex7 noise is always better than the 16Mp; that's including the most recent Nex6 which has exactly the same noise performance as the earlier 5N.


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Talking of Sensors, I just read on another site that the new 24mp sensor being used by the Nikon D3200 is made by Aptima, whether this is true of other 24mp Nikons, I don't know. Also, its rumoured that the new Panasonic GH3 is now using a Sony sensor instead of their own Panny one which Olympus relied upon for years. I personally think that the Sony 16mp sensor is the best out there.


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:16 pm 
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classiccameras wrote:
Talking of Sensors, ....... I personally think that the Sony 16mp sensor is the best out there.

I was watching a comparison between NEX-6 and Fuji X-E1 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jmwEQB0KM8U
Obviously Fuji's own sensor outperforms Sony's 16mp quality wise. :roll:

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Last edited by Dr. Harout on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:37 pm 
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That's a very interesting comparison, I have always admired Fuji picture quality and especially their EXR technology. My little X10 exhibits suberb IQ and its better than my friends Canon 1100D, and all from a smaller sensor.

I think Sony sensors are currently the industry standard, but I guess that won't last for ever.
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:50 pm 
Oligarch

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Dr. Harout wrote:
I was watching a comparison between NEX-6 and Fuji X-E1 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jmwEQB0KM8U
Obviously Fuji's own sensor outperforms Sony's 16mp quality wise. :roll:

but iirc isn't the Fuji sensor a Sony sensor but with a unique Fuji CFA rather than Bayer?


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:47 am 
Tower of Babel
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Some interesting stuff here on sensors http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/05/23/a-survey-of-recent-image-sensor-pixel-structures but it’s a little on the ‘iggy toople zap’ side, some of it goes straight through to the keeper with me. :roll:
Greg


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Do Nikon have the facility to fab sensors? I don't always believe the label same applies for PC parts take a PSU unit only around 4/5 well known quality makers. Just because it has a Antec/Coolermaster/OCZ badge it's in reality made by a major manufacturer to their "design specs"


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:51 am 
Tower of Babel
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Nikon seem to have the capacity to do or get involved in sensor design work, they were involved with Kodak in the early eighties for some years and then Fuji or maybe Sigma or both gradually accumulating and maybe contributing knowledge about imaging sensors until the arrival of the D1 in the late 90’s but I’m not sure who that was in collaboration with, the Nikon guy I was reading up didn’t say.
One thing was for sure there was a big problem previously in getting such a project off the ground and that was power, no big Lithium batteries yet, another problem was convincing the partner with the fab (Sony? Aptina? Renesas?) that it was even feasible to try to make such a large imaging sensor (APS-C size) with it’s power demands and processing needs, but make it they did and the cobbled together system worked.
So they have had a long history with imaging sensors going right back to the beginning but it’s not easy to work out where the design for the Nikon sensors comes from exactly or how much input they have in it. Those Renesas sensors could be done to a Nikon design or it could be a design that they worked on together, that part of the deal is still as inscrutable as ever.
Greg


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:07 pm 
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I'm sure Nikon design/have a spec etc etc for the sensors. We know that Canon make their own (and users are now complaining that they should be using the better Sony sensors! How things change eh?) I doubt Nikon fab them themselves unless someone has some information about that. Just because it has "Nikon" stamped on the sensor does not mean it's manufactured by Nikon (case for many electronic components re-branded)


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:35 pm 
Tower of Babel
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Yes Barry, the boffins at chipworks seem to know their stuff, (check their prices for a complete report on something, $26,000 I saw on one and I don’t know who pays for that and why) they do teardowns of expensive cameras (the cameras are totalled) to find and identify the origins of the components and try to nut out the specifications of them too. They seem to be of the opinion that the ‘Nikon’ sensors were fabbed by Renesas, apparently there are features in them that are key indicators as to who the most likely suspect was, just how much input Nikon has in the design is unknown, it could be a lot or it could be not so much but no one from Nikon is saying.
I think personally Nikon knows quite a lot about what makes sensors tick and probably evaluate sensor proposals fairly thoroughly, the really difficult part is being a successful technological innovator at the forefront in that field, it’s so volatile, one minute you’ve got a winning design and in the next it’s old news. The other difficult part is coming up the with USD1billion odd to build a fab, and why do that when you can shop around or even get them made to your requirements in someone else’s fab, especially when some new technology is on offer that you didn’t have to pay the r&d costs on, so I think probably Nikon are doing that part right at least.
Canon according to chipworks have been using the same type of design since the beginning so it might be getting a little long in the tooth, (I wouldn’t know) but I reckon they won’t just fade away, they’ll do something to stay on top. (the Empire Strikes Back).
Greg


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Fair enough.
Talking of design I think there is something that is a bit off with Nikon tonality wise. And I'm not just saying that out of angst with AF issues, but I could never really get the look I wanted for skin tones. And the greens for scenic stuff are just "wrong". It's not a WB thing I played to death with that, but I completely see why some people are shooting Canon and won't switch no matter how good the sensors are in Nikon bodies.

I wish I could nail it down, maybe I'm overly sensitive to tones and hues. Not that the Nikon's I used were by any means "poor" in this regard, they just didn't shine to my eyes. Maybe DK can shed light on that a bit more!


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:42 pm 
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It's down to RGB filter array values and raw conversion profiles. The Nikon colour and tones tend to reflect more real exposure than Sony generally gives, so midtones can look lighter - skin tends to be a bit pale.

What I can say is that if one raw processor is used, like ACR, it's not hard to get matched colours between Nikon and Sony but fairly hard to match Canon to either.

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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:11 am 
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I have to agree about Nikon colours, both my old D5000 and later D5100 exhibited rather unrealistic greens although the overall picture quality was superb. Having said that, I had a Canon [12mp] 450D a few years ago and it had the most pleasing and realistic colour rendition with razor sharp images, certainly nicer and sharper than Nikon.

My all time favourite colours were from the Olympus 4thirds E system cameras such as the E-510/20/450/3 etc. They were much loved by the pros and amateurs alike. Infact comparing my Nikon directly with my old Olympus for colour rendition, showed up the Nikon as not that pleasing in comparison. Sadly, Olympus suffered from other issues that left them trailing in the noise and dynamic range stakes.
The new Oly OM-D in my opinion is not as nice a colour as the older models.

Canon in all honesty takes some beating for colour but I think Sony are very close behind.


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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:56 am 
Viceroy

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Historically older Canon's could not sufficiently resolve red hues. It was really bad as the red hues ranged mostly from pink to saturated red - ugliest of all other manu's. Starting from the 7D Canon has improved greatly.

Below are three renditions from the 7D, D7000 and a77 IR raw samples. All were developed using profiles created from the very same recipe, no camera-specific adjustments were done to the colours neither in the profiles, nor otherwise. All I did to equalise the output were the global and local tonal adjustments not specific to the colours. See for yourselves -


Attachments:
E7DhSLI00100_NR_0.jpg
E7DhSLI00100_NR_0.jpg [ 202.99 KiB | Viewed 820 times ]
D7000hSLI00200_NR0.jpg
D7000hSLI00200_NR0.jpg [ 203.35 KiB | Viewed 820 times ]
AA77hSLI00050NR1.jpg
AA77hSLI00050NR1.jpg [ 201.28 KiB | Viewed 820 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: DPR say A57 RAW images are best in class?
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Very interesting and thanks for taking the time to post this. There are differences but they are quite subtle rather than glaringly obvious. Agreed about early Canon colours.
I guess no camera is going to satisfy every body for its colour rendition as its a very subjective thing.
Is there a perfect camera out there? I doubt it.
I found my Nikons were good at people/portrait and sports pictures, but my Sony and old Olympus E-450 were superior in landscape colours. These are my tastes and other people I'm sure will have there's.
Panasonic for example with their G series cameras always suffered from a brown/pink tint and awfull skin tones with flash. I think the latest models may have corrected this.
Do you have a preference on the 3 pictures.

Pete


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