Free TV with A99

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:24 am

It could work, but they'll need to offer folks a genuine pull/reason over Canikon who continue to dominate. I'm not sure where they will get that from, no doubt more glass with turn up, if they can tie up the lose ends and nail down some quirks/issues that will no doubt help as well as what Greg said sorting out the lens/flash range can only enhance appeal.

Sony don't really want to end up like Pentax though, selling the bodies cheap and over pricing the lenses. They struggle to get shelf space despite some good ideas.
I think Canikon are so entrenched in the buyers minds it will be almost impossible to change that. But I'd like to see them ramp things up a bit.

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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby Old Hydro » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:24 pm

Dr. Harout wrote:Barry, I think their FF bodies for next year would be in the Cybershot range (RX2, RX3, or similar). But don't take my word for it.
If they are aiming for number 2, then one of their "weapons" might be a diversified approach to attract amateurs/professionals with their different camera systems, yet having many "intersections" among each other.
Thus, they'll have APS-C mirrorless cameras (NEX), Compact FF (RX series) and the Alpha A-mount system.
Add to that (a probable) interchangeable lens RX FF system...
This kind of trio might really work.



Sony needs to do some rethinking about how it sells FF cameras. -- I was ready to but the A99 last weekend, until I saw the price of the A77 had dropped to $1000, and Sony limited the 3 year zero interest deal to TVs.

Now a Pro who was making money off the equipment would not have a problem with $2800 for the A99, but serious non-pro is not going to spend that when the next camera in the line is going for $1800 less. It made me fell like I was being suckered, if I choose the A99 because its not worth $1800 more.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:36 pm

I would add even if you are making money, unless you're making a killing you don't have unlimited funds for equipment purchases. Thus splashing out £2000 on a body is not to be sniffed at even for working photographers.
I doubt the A99 is going to shift in big numbers until a hefty price cut comes along...even then it's not an easy sell for Sony.

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Greg Beetham
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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:49 pm

I read somewhere that FF sensors cost 8 times more to make than an APS-C sensor, which is fairly useless information if you don't know what it costs to make an APS-C sensor. If it’s not much then 8 times more might not be much either, but if it's a lot then FF sensors would really cost heaps to make, so it’s likely that FF cameras will always be more expensive than APS-C cameras. Nikon have found a way to make one at a reasonable price so it’s strange (I agree) that Sony can’t seem to make one as well, especially with their 'less expensive' to manufacture SLT style.
Greg

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:14 pm

Greg I've no idea of sensor cost but I suspect the APS-C ones cost not a lot to make. Sony AND Canon both got caught with their "pants down" big time with the D600. I got an email today from WEX saying "Canon 6d now in stock" at £1799 you can basically forget it. The initial D600 release price was dumb at nearly £2000 odd, but they've dropped it to "more sensible levels"

Even if you have no interest in FF, then once the FF barrage continues and prices fall on those bodies it puts downward pressure on higher end APS-C ones. I'd be surprised if any maker can now command very high prices even for pro level APS-C bodies that might arrive. Sony have a problem though..in that they need something FF that won't blow the wallet apart, if they don't respond they risk losing quite a few users to other makers.

IMO Sony are just milking the cow with the A99 price, problem is it's not the only cow in town :mrgreen:

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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby Dr. Harout » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:57 pm

Oooops, then I'm one of those cows :shock:
A99 + Sony, Zeiss, Minolta, Rokinon and M42 lenses

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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby Greg Beetham » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:54 pm

My guess is it would be reasonably expensive to make imaging sensors if you take all the costs into account, starting with the fab and how many you would need to sell to break even, there would be a certain number that would end up in the junk bin, and that in turn would depend on how hygienic the fab was (one of the major costs is completely sanitizing the air…completely), not even the most microscopic dust mote is allowed to be inside the fab.
I think they are using .18um process (the laser wavelength used to cut the design…I think) now if I remember correctly and that is very small, pixels vary in size between 3.8 and 8.45um on different sensors (I think some are even smaller) so you can imagine at that size how clean the fab has to be and how easy it would be to spoil a high percentage of sensors, especially if they are large in surface area.
Once you break even then of course you start making money, it just depends on how long that particular sensor is in demand for I imagine whether you make some money or a fair bit of money.
Greg

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:11 pm

Problem is Greg Nikon have a we assume same sensor 24mp CMOS FF selling in a body that is under £1500 (right now) not cheap..but it will drop more no question. A99 is a whopping £800 more.
However you stack it up sensor cost I'm pretty sure Sony sensors sell to Sony cameras for a bit less than they do to Nikon :mrgreen:

Nikon are going to wipe the floor with everyone else unless they respond, the only question mark I have is Nikon's QC which is lately not so hot. But many folks will simply see the price, not particularly care about a few bits like 1/4000 sec shutter. Even at £1500 odd I'd say the argument for APS-C is pretty strong cost wise. With the A99 if DK is saying it's basically a FF sensor shoved into an A77 body, then it's hard to justify 3x the cost just on the sensor.

Lots of questions not that many answers right now but that's how I see things.
I'm actually happy enough with APS-C, but I'm well aware I can cover things quite well even now on full frame. The price of the A99 buys an awful lot of Dynax 7's on ebay, and a heck of a lot of 35mm film rolls/processing :shock:

Maybe FF potential users will be better served with a s/h A900/A850 at least they are a bit more wallet friendly. Maybe Sony should have kept one in production as a budget option :roll:

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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby Wes Gibbon » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:26 am

bfitzgerald wrote: the only question mark I have is Nikon's QC which is lately not so hot.

Maybe it's significant that Nikon regard the D600 as a consumer, not professional, camera. I know one serious D700 user who does not see the D600 as worth considering as that seems to indicate a reduction in QC. There have been reports of serious quantities of grot getting on the D600 sensor. Sensor swabs are not cheap if you have to use them every day. Have Nikon cut too many corners? Time will tell.

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bfitzgerald
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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby bfitzgerald » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:03 pm

I can only speak for myself but it would not matter if a camera cost £299 if it had AF problems I would return it. Regarding the other issues such as the left AF misalignment with the D800, and the "oil/dust" issues on the D600, I'm not that surprised after my own hands on experience with Nikon. I think their QC sucks basically, worse they can't fix problems properly at official service either!

I only rank Pentax as worse because they knowingly sold defective AF bodies for a long time without a fix, and their customer support is basically "ignore" be it email or letters.

All makers have problems, that is for certain. I do think Nikon have had a lot more recently, and this seems likely to be due to shovelling so many bodies out and an over ambitious release schedule. Issues like the AF and oil splats would not be a problem for the end user if companies had proper QC testing and methods (they would get spotted quickly)

As for the D600 consumer class or not it's still £1500 odd which is not an insignificant sum for most people (I'm sure Doc is well paid!)

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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby pakodominguez » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:44 am

David Kilpatrick wrote:The deal is only for purchases direct from Sony, so they are basically using their dealer discount margin.

Margins are not that high -not in the USA at least. If I go to Adorama and buy the A99, I won't get 400$ off -even if the store manager loves me... In other hand, manufacturer's (not just Sony) margin is between 25% and 40% (this is the max I can get as on some Personal Purchase programs)

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Re: Free TV with A99

Unread postby David Kilpatrick » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:44 am

Journalist discount can be surprisingly high. It sometimes is a match to BCP (best cost price) or landed price. Similar, I would think, to some staff discounts within the importer/agency, if not within dealerships. 45% in the case of a recent purchase we made.

David


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