Q&A with the SLT Development Team

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OneGuyKs

Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by OneGuyKs »

twm47099 wrote: Then they released the A900 + CZ lenses that started attracting users from other brands.
tom
Your whole history is wrong. Two posters on DPR who bought A900 + CZ doesn't mean Sony started attracting users from other brands. Sony sold more Nex in one week than all A900 sold in the last 2 years. They didn't get anywhere with A700, A850, A900. They were on the wrong track, and had they released A750 this years, it would have done no better than a700.

Look at what happens to K-5. Sure a few Pentax users would buy it (most will wait 6 months for prices to drop below $1000 -- by then no more profitable camera) but that's about it. A750 would have suffered the same fate.
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

emarsh72 wrote:If there is more offered no one is suffering. If someone doesn't like live view, don't use it. If someone doesn't like an articulating screen, don't use it. No skin off anyone's back.
How does 'don't use it' convert the camera with LV back into a camera without LV and a first class OVF without any compromises? also most of the articulating screens I've seen so far push your face further away from the OVF as well, how does 'don't use it' improve that situation?
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by peterottaway »

The A850/A900 may not have been the success that we hoped for but it is a very good camera. When the next load of high end cameras come out I will be judging them by how well they suit me with the A850 as my reference point.

These days any camera with a street price over $1500 had better offer something special . Pentax with the K-5 have priced the camera according to last years rules whilst Nikon with the D7000 have set a new pricing structure. Because Pentax is such a small player it simply cannot command a decent premium over what will prove to be the market place darling even if it is actually a better enthusiasts camera.

And like it or not the same goes for the much larger Sony as well. Sony must establish itself as being somewhat different, good quality but different. This where Sony cannot afford too many stuff ups, sure with new directions will come teething problems but they must be seen to be corrected and quickly.
Last edited by peterottaway on Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I need actual figures when someone says the A900 or the A700 didn't sell, without real figures or a percentage of the market in their respective segments the statement is suspect.
If I was going too indulge in some guesswork, I'd blame the economic downturn for a drop in camera sales, especially the more expensive models. There was a report I saw quite a few weeks ago that did predict a drop in DSLR sales generally, I don't know if that has actually transpired or not.
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by twm47099 »

OneGuyKs wrote:
twm47099 wrote: Then they released the A900 + CZ lenses that started attracting users from other brands.
tom
Your whole history is wrong. Two posters on DPR who bought A900 + CZ doesn't mean Sony started attracting users from other brands. Sony sold more Nex in one week than all A900 sold in the last 2 years. They didn't get anywhere with A700, A850, A900. They were on the wrong track, and had they released A750 this years, it would have done no better than a700.

Look at what happens to K-5. Sure a few Pentax users would buy it (most will wait 6 months for prices to drop below $1000 -- by then no more profitable camera) but that's about it. A750 would have suffered the same fate.

Not counting the dpr posters. Go to Getdpi. There are a number of advanced users there who bought the A900 because of the resolution, cost, and CZ lenses. Some gave up their Canikon systems. Although more added an A900 for high res photography and kept their original system (similar with LL). And since I think there were more than 2 dpr posters who bought into the A900, I put the rest of your post into the same trash bin as that statement.

Of course Sony sold more nex than a900. Just like they sell more $100 items than they do $1000 items. (Note a good number of the getdpi folks also bought the NEX to use with their manual focus lenses.

There will always be more entry - mid level cameras sold than enthusiast or pro/semi pro cameras in any brand. If a company has no (or very small user base), why would anyone expect a first time, flawed, high level camera to have any success? That it sold out should be the surprise. That the A2??/3?? are still available and not moving should also say something. If it had worked as well as other brands at that level, cost the same or less, had the same features, and added a couple of extras it might have attracted more. But the A700 when released didn't have IQ as good as competitors, cost more, didn't have LV or video, so tell me why it should have been a fantastic success?

NEX was aimed at their P&S shooters with no upgrades (great idea), but Sony didn't realize that they would also appeal to those with manual focus lenses that have been collecting dust waiting for a digital platform. Based on the Photokina interview, they now realize that and are going to work to satisfy that market - another great idea.

By the way, Sony Style where I live, a couple of weeks ago finally moved the NEX out of the deepest darkest corner of their store (where the hide the alphas) and put them on a display near the 3D TV. However, even though the store was pretty crowded the few times I went in looking for an A33 the NEX display was a nice place to stand and meditate without any interruptions (no one even stopped to look). And still no A33.

tom
Last edited by twm47099 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by twm47099 »

emarsh72 wrote:TVM said.... ''So people who have other needs than you are snobs. God forbid, I don't want or need video, but somehow I'm willing to have it on a camera if others want it. The only purpose for the "translucent mirror" is to allow PDAF for video. So I don't need video, but still get the compromise of the TM??''
( I have to figure out how to properly quote here)

I was addressing live view and articulating lcd screens


If there is more offered no one is suffering. If someone doesn't like live view, don't use it. If someone doesn't like an articulating screen, don't use it. No skin off anyone's back. Also, Translucent mirrors offer not just benefits to video, but auto-focus in the still camera.
The focus is continuous, not predictive, this is what enables the fast action shooting on a $600 camera. Two different subjects though. It is also possible that these mirrors will provide some protection from dust on the sensor, but this is too soon to tell. It may develop down the road into a sealed design...dust-free sensors would be great.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment. I'm also not that interested in very high rate shooting, but as long as it doesn't degrade the still image (and it will take some use time before I am convinced that the TM doesn't degrade the image (since the dpr shots show it does on a new camera), I don't mind additions to a camera as you mentioned. However, I wish that Sony would continue their 'release lots of variations at a level' tradition for the 7 level.

tom
OneGuyKs

Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by OneGuyKs »

You are overestimating the number of users from a forum like Getdpi where people from all over the world can come and post.

A700/A900/A850 were failures, and how do I know that? Sony isn't interested in upgrading them or issuing a FW or anything else. That's how I know. No company ditches a product that is profitable! They ditch the ones that are losing money.

And your anecdotal evidence on Nex in SonyStyle means nothing. Sony announced 7 more lenses for the system. They would have never done that if they were losing money on Nex.

And if A55/A33/A77 fail too, I fully expect Sony to ditch the a-mount altogether. They aren't running a charity business to make real "photographers" (carl & barry) happy while losing money.
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Last time I looked no company was running a charity business (least of all other camera makers or any other company), bar registered charities that is.
We'll see who sells more Canon or Sony ;-)

Not a hard one to predict really.
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by michaelg »

bfitzgerald wrote:Last time I looked no company was running a charity business (least of all other camera makers or any other company), bar registered charities that is.
We'll see who sells more Canon or Sony ;-)

Not a hard one to predict really.
Actually I think it could be a hard one to predict. Sony's market share is growing fast due to the NEX & the SLT models in Japan, Asia & Europe. They are also making more impact in the US than before. Canon meanwhile is dropping Market share rapidly. In Japan in particular Sony is at 22% of the market, only 2% lower than Nikon. Very interesting times! Canon seems to be a little lacking in cohesive direction currently probably due to the combined attack by Nikon at its top end & Sony at its bottom to mid end. They need to stop being simply responsive & start being proactive. They appear to have been caught napping & resting on their laurels. A very perilous place to be. Any market can turn.

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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by Lonnie Utah »

BrianSmith wrote:Thanks, Doctor.

My fellow Sony Artisan's are a few more great examples:

David McLain http://www.davidmclain.com
Matthew Jordan Smith http://mjs-exp.com
Andy Katz http://www.andykatzphotography.com
Cristina Mittermeier http://www.cristinamittermeier.com
Me Ra Koh http://www.merakoh.com
One day, I want to be on that list! :)
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by Lonnie Utah »

I've been doing a little research on how/why Sony built these cameras the way they did and the more I find out, the more I'm impressed and stoked.

The bulk of this is a cut and paste job from somewhere else, but I figured it was worthwhile enough to repost here.

The Pellix was the first camera to use a pellicle mirror. It was a manual focus camera. It did allow for fast frame rates, and that was it's primary use. The technology progressed up to the Canon EOS RT which allowed for AF with the pellicule mirror.

Sony is using a semi-transparent mirror to allow for full time phase detect AF even in video mode. Something that had never been done before. High frame rates are an important side benefit, which I'll get back to in a second.

Here is a great image on how your DSLR works...

Image

As you can see a "regular" DSLR uses a "transparent" mirror as well. At least in part. The main mirror is transparent and has a second mirror attached that directs light into the AF unit located in base of the camera (which gets back to my point that splitting the light isn't in itself an innovation, rather the way it's used is). When you have to flip the first mirror up to take the exposure, you lose your ability to autofocus, for a split second if taking a still, or indefinitely if taking a video.

If you look, you'll also notice that your auto exposure meter is dependent on your shutter mirror as well, but this is less important as our digital sensors meter the amount of light that hit them during exposure.

The translucent mirror gets around this problem and never breaks the autofocus light path during exposure. The allows for, at least in theory, very fast tracking of moving subjects. This will be a boon for sports shooters. There are also the side benefits of less shutter lag, less vibration and no viewfinder blackout.

Now all of these processes need light to work, and everytime light passes thru a piece of glass/plastic, or bounces off a mirror there is light loss and dispersion. With the original Pellix, this was a big issue because of the relatively slow film speeds we used at the time (400 was a "fast" iso). A little light loss isn't as much of an issue today with our superfast iso. The dispersion is a bit of an issue for both SLT's and traditional DSLRs. The AF unit on the A55/A33 is where the penta-prism used to be on a camera. This means on an SLT, the light only has to bounce 1 time to hit the (two) autofoucs ccd(s). On a traditional DSLR, it has two bounce off two mirrors before it hits the ccd. It's two (mirror) planes times 3 dimensions that have to stay in alignment for AF to remain spot on. Twice the error you have to worry about if your mirror comes out of alignment (which could lead to front/back focus errors).

I also mentioned high frame rates an how the relate to other "innovations". High frame rates allow the software in the camera do all the cool "tricks" like HDR, Anti Motion Blur, stitched panos, 3D panos, twilight mulitshot and 3D 16:9 stills. All of those things can be done with lower frame rates, but it's are harder to get them to "look right".

As a side note, the original pellicle mirrors darkened over time (which lead to obvious problems). If it did, you had to send them back to cannon for replacement. Now I don't know if this will be a problem with sony's translucent mirrors, but they are designed to be replaced by the user if needed.

Much has fuss has been made over the lack of an optical viewfinder in these types of cameras. However, the new a77 will have a 3mp display EVF. That's approximately 2100x1400 pixles on the display. To give you an idea, it's better than the 1080p display of a HDTV, and that's impressive.

Here's a little video. A bit dry, but it does a good job explaining how AF works...

[video=youtube;HXA0mTZCQbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXA0mTZC ... r_embedded[/video]

So the more I find out, the more I'm impressed. I will say it now, the A77 will be my next camera...
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Re: Q&A with the SLT Development Team

Unread post by Lonnie Utah »

I've been doing a little research on how/why Sony built these cameras the way they did and the more I find out, the more I'm impressed and stoked.

The bulk of this is a cut and paste job from somewhere else, but I figured it was worthwhile enough to repost here.

The Pellix was the first camera to use a pellicle mirror. It was a manual focus camera. It did allow for fast frame rates, and that was it's primary use. The technology progressed up to the Canon EOS RT which allowed for AF with the pellicule mirror.

Sony is using a semi-transparent mirror to allow for full time phase detect AF even in video mode. Something that had never been done before. High frame rates are an important side benefit, which I'll get back to in a second.

Here is a great image on how a traditional DSLR works...

Image

As you can see a "regular" DSLR uses a "transparent" mirror as well. At least in part. The main mirror is transparent and has a second mirror attached that directs light into the AF unit located in base of the camera (which gets back to my point that splitting the light isn't in itself an innovation, rather the way it's used is). When you have to flip the first mirror up to take the exposure, you lose your ability to autofocus, for a split second if taking a still, or indefinitely if taking a video.

If you look, you'll also notice that your auto exposure meter is dependent on your shutter mirror as well, but this is less important as our digital sensors meter the amount of light that hit them during exposure.

The translucent mirror gets around this problem and never breaks the autofocus light path during exposure. The allows for, at least in theory, very fast tracking of moving subjects. This will be a boon for sports shooters. There are also the side benefits of less shutter lag, less vibration and no viewfinder blackout.

Now all of these processes need light to work, and everytime light passes thru a piece of glass/plastic, or bounces off a mirror there is light loss and dispersion. With the original Pellix, this was a big issue because of the relatively slow film speeds we used at the time (400 was a "fast" iso). A little light loss isn't as much of an issue today with our superfast iso. The dispersion is a bit of an issue for both SLT's and traditional DSLRs. The AF unit on the A55/A33 is where the penta-prism used to be on a camera. This means on an SLT, the light only has to bounce 1 time to hit the (two) autofoucs ccd(s). On a traditional DSLR, it has two bounce off two mirrors before it hits the ccd. It's two (mirror) planes times 3 dimensions that have to stay in alignment for AF to remain spot on. Twice the error you have to worry about if your mirror comes out of alignment (which could lead to front/back focus errors).

I also mentioned high frame rates an how the relate to other "innovations". High frame rates allow the software in the camera do all the cool "tricks" like HDR, Anti Motion Blur, stitched panos, 3D panos, twilight mulitshot and 3D 16:9 stills. All of those things can be done with lower frame rates, but it's are harder to get them to "look right".

As a side note, the original pellicle mirrors darkened over time (which lead to obvious problems). If it did, you had to send them back to cannon for replacement. Now I don't know if this will be a problem with sony's translucent mirrors, but they are designed to be replaced by the user if needed.

Much has fuss has been made over the lack of an optical viewfinder in these types of cameras. However, the new a77 will have a 3mp display EVF. That's approximately 2100x1400 pixles on the display. To give you an idea, it's better than the 1080p display of a HDTV, and that's impressive.

Here's a little video. A bit dry, but it does a good job explaining how AF works...

[video=youtube;HXA0mTZCQbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXA0mTZC ... r_embedded[/video]

So the more I find out, the more I'm impressed. I will say it now, the A77 will be my next camera...
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