Sony looks to change the world of DSLRs - Masashi 'Tiger' Im

[Scooterman]

Barry, Sony are making camera gear for a market that they can sell to not the ones that have no intension of buying their products and while they have made a mistake with the mirror less bodies and the DSLT, before you grin and think I’ve got him! It is only that they under estimated how well they would sell.
The market will decide who is right and who is wrong about this and all of your moaning about Sony will have no impression at all.
You stick with Pentax that is the system you have gone for, have a moan on the PentaxUser forum there are many like you on there.
Regards
Richard

[Heidfirst]

The D7000 might sell poorly because of production problems, it's Sony Nikon are relying on to supply the sensor after all. I get the impression Sony can't supply enough sensors for it's own A55 at the moment.

if I had to guess it would be because Sony is last in line for them - from experience it's much easier to put a sister company's orders back than your largest independent customer especially when they probably are paying less than your best customer.

.
btw why should one have to turn off the SSS in a camera to avoid overheating?

you cannae change the laws of physics!
all that extra energy (shaking) has to go somewhere & it manifests as extra heat.
I imagine that making a large enough heatsink for the sensor & a way of extracting heat from the body would make it larger, heavier, more expensive & possibly also have a deleterious effect on SSS anyway.

[Scooterman]

Barry said "Scooterman at some stage you'll have to admit I have a point and the K-5 is a brick in your "Sony needs to change"
Barry the K-5 Pentax is a K-7 that had a Samsung sensor and now the have a Good Sony one, now it is loads better, if you want to pay £1100 for it! I have as I said The A-580 Sony same sensor, ok it is not waterproof, nor am I so not required for me.
I did try the K7 and found it lacking and my friends who have the K5 say that although Pentax have improved the AF it is still not as fast as the Nikon 7000D or my A-580, and that is what I want.
If I wanted a heavy duty camera I could have bought a Canon 1D, but I do have a hammer for nails so not required.
Regards
Richard

[bfitzgerald]

It's a business, not a service to enthusiast photographer's. You never seem to understand this. The only way to get to 20% and more is by changing the game.

Unfortunately I think you don't get it..it is a service to enthusiast photographers all the users here are such users.
Changing the game will not work for Sony their rivals are too entrenched to move over and lie down.

They should concentrate on making exceptionally good well designed DSLR cameras the A700 deserves another crack not SLT but DSLR using a good 100% VF and a robust feature set to compete with rivals. Sony risk losing a significant number of users who are not that interested in SLT and replacing them with users who mostly don't invest in a system heavily. That's a poor business choice in my books.

By ignoring OVF users they are taking a pretty big gamble the only logical approach is to develop both OVF and SLT along side each other offering a real choice to buyers.

Scooterman I think you should try a Pentax before you suggest their AF is slow far from it old bean. Imaging resource have AF speeds up on their site if you care to look. As nice as the A580 is it's still a £600 camera that should have a better viewfinder and proper customisation.

[Scooterman]

Barry said.
"Scooterman I think you should try a Pentax before you suggest their AF is slow far from it old bean. Imaging resource have AF speeds up on their site if you care to look.
As nice as the A580 is it's still a £600 camera that should have a better viewfinder and proper customisation."


I have used a Pentax K5 Barry, and the K7 also I owned a K20 and a k10 also many of the quite nice Pentax lenses.

While as I said the K5 has improved on the AF speed it is still not in the same league as the Nikon or IMHO the A-580.
I am now awaiting the launch of the A-7** and if I think it will fit my kneads I may invest my cash in it.
Just may be we will see it at Infocus at the NEC this year.
I have my ticket number already, I had that before Christmas, free of course to the lucky few.
Regards
Richard

[bfitzgerald]

Let's take a look then at AF speeds

K7:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/K7/K7A6.HTM

"Full autofocus shutter lag using single-point (center) AF mode is excellent, at 0.093 second with our reference Sigma 70mm f/2.8 lens. Switching to auto-area AF mode increased lag slightly to 0.108"

No A580 results from them yet but they have the A560 ones:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA560/AA560A6.HTM

"Looking at the Sony A560's ability to determine that it's properly focused when shooting the same target multiple times, its speed is a little slower than average for a consumer model when using the optical viewfinder. The A560 required about 0.295 second for full AF using the center focus point. This increased slightly to 0.307 second in wide-area AF mode"

Let's look at the A55:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA55/AA55A6.HTM

"Looking at the Sony A55V's ability to determine that it's properly focused when shooting the same target multiple times, its speed is about average for a consumer SLR. The SLT-A55V required 0.22 second for full AF using the center focus point. This decreased slightly to 0.218 second in wide-area AF mode"


For fun the K-x:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/KX/KXA6.HTM

"Full autofocus shutter lag using single-point (center) AF mode is excellent, at 0.097 second with our reference Sigma 70mm f/2.8 lens. Switching to auto-area AF mode increased lag slightly to 0.122 second, but that's still very fast for a consumer model"

D7000:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D7000/D7000A6.HTM

"the Nikon D7000 was slightly slower than average for a prosumer SLR. The D7000 required 0.238 second for full AF when using Single-point (center) AF mode (our default full AF lag test), a little slower than what we measured for the D90 (0.208s) and D300S (0.225s). The D7000 required 0.436 second when using the 39-point Auto-area AF mode, also slower than the D90 (0.270s) and D300S "

Nikon are not known for very fast AF Canon are considered faster in general. Of course AF speed does not always tell the whole story because tracking and accuracy are also very important. Having used and owned a number of models from various makers I'd say IR's AF figures are fairly near to actual use obviously different lenses etc will influence that.

I'm not seeing the slow AF you're talking about.

[mike2008]

It's a business, not a service to enthusiast photographer's. You never seem to understand this. The only way to get to 20% and more is by changing the game.

Unfortunately I think you don't get it..it is a service to enthusiast photographers all the users here are such users.
Changing the game will not work for Sony their rivals are too entrenched to move over and lie down.

They should concentrate on making exceptionally good well designed DSLR cameras the A700 deserves another crack not SLT but DSLR using a good 100% VF and a robust feature set to compete with rivals. Sony risk losing a significant number of users who are not that interested in SLT and replacing them with users who mostly don't invest in a system heavily. That's a poor business choice in my books.

By ignoring OVF users they are taking a pretty big gamble the only logical approach is to develop both OVF and SLT along side each other offering a real choice to buyers.

No, really, you are not getting it at all. You are stuck in a very, very narrow mind set and simply are not listening to what sony is telling you. You describe something very much like the canon 7d and say sony should make that. But the 7D is very low priced now, and very, very good. Why would anyone choose the theoertical newer, probably more expensive sony verison over the canon? The objective is to gain market share not keep current users happy. Whether we like it or not is totally irrelevant, sony have a strategy and they're executing it. They themselves are telling us what they are doing very, very clearly. You think they are taking a risk; they are... But you simply cannot gain share from canikon without changing the game. If you want a canikontax type camera you should buy one; oh, you have.

This is just a dumb conversation now. You simply want to keep saying no, no, no and shut your eyes to reality.

[Greg Beetham]

Wow sales must have slumped for the D7000 since Sept. then it was No2 seller in class and also No2 in the top 100. Well according to this anyway http://www.dslrphoto.com/dslr/top-10-sa ... 19232.html
Greg

[David Kilpatrick]

It's not really possible to compare AF speeds on the basis used by imagingresource; the Sigma 70mm macro, which I have, is probably the slowest focusing (and least predictable in lock/hunt behaviour) of any modern lens I use. Even so, it's faster than old Minolta macros. For both Pentax and Sony, it's a screw drive only lens, no HSM; if this is their standard test lens, the Canon version has an internal focus motor (but micromotor not HSM) and either the Nikon one has a motor (not shown on Sigma's site) or is incompatible with many current Nikon bodies.

Comparing the Sigma 70mm on the A700 and A580, I find a huge difference in performance and speed. The A700 takes around 1/10th of a second to refocus given slight changes in distance (with this lens, big changes can take up to a full second as the focus travel is very slow). However, the A700 AF system even with its f/2.8 central sensor does not show any need to refocus with small differences. It's simply not very accurate and confirms AF over a wide range of sharpness.

In contrast, the A580 new module despite being f/5.6 for all sensors is REALLY critical. Moving the target just a few mm of focus difference in a metre produces immediate 'focus out' and refocusing - and the AF will fine tune over 1/3rd, 1/2 second as needed to get absolutely perfectly confirmation. Magnifying the view confirms that focus is always extremely accurate and even the smallest changes produce a need to refocus.

You may remember that the A700/A900 offer a choice between slower and faster AF, the reason for slower AF being an option originally was to get higher accuracy. The latest A900/850 firmware upgrade changes the algorithm for single AF to ensure better accuracy. This will, by definition, also affect AF speed.

So, unless the margin or error (depth of acceptable focus error, phase difference tolerance) is known for the Pentax it is impossible to compare it with the Sony. It could well be faster and just as accurate, or it may simply be faster because it is not as accurate. One thing I can assure you is that the latest Sony models, the A55 and A580 which I have, bring a new level of AF accuracy to the system.

Also, the focus speed and behaviour is altered by the lens type used - SSM and SAM lenses function better with continuous AF and subject tracking. Pentax has the same situation, a range of lenses from screw drive through micromotor to ultrasonic motor. Against this background, imagingresource's AF 'benchmark' test can be seen for what it is - a very incomplete and indequate method, applied to something which actually so complex it can't be measured on a bench and therefore is not a good benchmark!

Pentax has of course improved the SAFOX module greatly for the K-5. To sell a £1000 camera with the old module would have been suicide.

David

[bfitzgerald]

There is no slump Nikon are probably getting the factory to work over time and double shifts to meet demands!
Mike you continue to insist you are right yet we see on DPR yet another long term Sony user (Richard) who wants an OVF DSLR abandon ship and buy..erm well a D7000!

Sony can't afford to lose users such as this by not offering what could be an easy update to the A700..beef up the AF, tweak the design, more sealing, juice up the fps, nice 100% OVF (with a full time ISO display) deep customisation, proper jpeg NR control, add a good video mode with manual controls, live view. They'd have an instant hit on their hands and users would be super happy.

In response to DK IR's tests are simply that a test and obviously you make some very reasonable points. I simply state that the posters comments above are simply not accurate if both the Sony and Pentax versions are screw drive I'd say that's a reasonable level playing field comparing them. Even on the K-x I notice the "film 7" like micro adjustments and quickly to AF that I don't on the 5d and A200.

[alphaomega]

Personnally I would like Sony to continue to make available OVF models as they progress with SLT and NEX models (as is clearly their intention). I bought the A580 rather than A55. My contribution to this debate has simply been to sketch out what I think that Sony are now doing. Some large companies such as Sony have a corporate strategy to only own companies or divisions that are No 1 or 2 in their sectors. US GE operated like that under Walsh and probably still do. I think that Sony said on taking over Minolta that they intended to become No. 2. I think they first came out with Minolta leaning DSLRs such as A100, A700 and A900 and then followed with some hybrids with a mixture of Minolta and Sony as they better understood the technicalities of the market. They are now moving into basically Sony territory with the remaining Minolta legacy mainly left in A560/580. They have concluded (in my humble opinion) that taking on CaNikon head to head is a no winner. They have employed the Google against Microsoft tactics of creating a new market and Microsoft are now playing catch up. Google did not try and create a better Windows and Office suite at lower prices. They developed the Internet and caught MS out. Sony are trying to do the same now with CaNikon with their SLT/NEX move based on their technology and patents. It may or may not pay off, but I would agree from my experience that it is a smarter move than trying to beat CaNikon at their game rather than at one created by Sony. Barry and Co. are perfectly entitled to disagree with Sony, but frankly I think they are protesting in vain. There will be others like Richard (whoever he is) leaving Sony but if the NEX/SLT cameras sell in greater quantities than the old DSLR models and generate acceptable profits Sony will quite relaxed about losing Richard, Barry and their likes. My view is that for a first generation the NEX/SLT cameras are excellent. I can only imagine that future models will be even better and the improved EVF will surprise the some of the current doubters (but not Barry).

[Scooterman]

Barry you can quote test figures that have been done in a laboratory, the only test that is true, is use in the real world, and as you are not in the real world yourself there is no hope, so until you actually have some thing to try for yourself.
You may have noticed that in the past I had a canon 7D to all intents and according to some, the best cropped sensor camera on the market, well it is not all it is cracked up to be I had more missed shots because inaccurate focusing, and yes I had some top class Canon L series lenses so I parted company with it and Canon.
Two friends had 7 D’s one has now got rid of his he found the same fault and now the other guy is also going to get a 1D mk3 or 4 because he is unhappy, both of them like doing motor sport/speedway etc.
I have been fortunate that over the years I have had the money to indulge in buying and using any kit I wanted, and you know something I wish I had found Sony kit sooner, my regret is I did believe all of the so called facts and figures that get printed in the glossy mag’s like many others and I think the reason why Canon and Nikon do so well.
It is not until you read someone like David’s write ups that you get a better picture of what it is all about and he is honest about it, keep it up David.
Regards
richard

[bfitzgerald]

I read things and I use them too so IR and their AF test as flawed as some might suggest it's been fairly close to real world use let's not forget I too have used a Canon 7d and many other models over the years some briefly some borrowed so I'd have a least an idea of this. The A55 is pretty fast but you're not correct in suggesting recent Pentax models are slow we could debate AF accuracy but you'd need an extended period of time to put each model through it's paces. Yes the K-x is faster than the A55 (good light) I know because I've used both. AF accuracy again you'd have to use them both for a longer time.

I believe I addressed one point made regarding the high ISO performance of the older CCD's the 6mp and 10mp ones and I demonstrated the real world difference in low light. I was unable to match the performance of the 6mp CCD with the 10mp one even with identical exposures. Real world v reading having used both for a number of years it was entirely obvious I would not convey incorrect information to forum readers. I've also stated a problem with the AF on the A200 where it's central focus point would cover a larger area than you expect (or v previous A mount bodies) leading to some AF problems by locking onto rear subjects. Only long term use reveals some of these quirks. On both accounts David did not agree with me.

[calpon]

Japan is an interesting market but if you combine Europe and the USA they are far bigger. I'm sure NEX is doing pretty well but it's unlikely to be selling to the same levels in other regions.
And the overall market is still dominated by..traditional DSLR's from the top 2 makers the SLT rankings in Japan are not particularly impressive. I believe it's doing pretty well combined in other regions but I very much doubt SLT on it's own will be enough to drive Sony to new heights in the camera industry.

Barry....you may be right to some degree, but in the USA it is very much in demand. I have decided to get an A55 and after testing , I will decide if I will keep my A700 or go with the A55. All of the more common resellers from Adorama, to B&H and Berger Bros are having problems filling orders. I have been told by all 3 that as they get them in they all go out within an hour or 2. All of the local sellers are the same as well. I have been told by the online sellers, that this has been the most popular order the last several weeks.

[Greg Beetham]

That appears to be what Sony is doing alright alphaomega, Sony is focused on SLT.
I've seen quite a few posts complaining that you almost have to be Indiana Jones too find a shop with an A55. That doesn't say much for Sony's market strategy (again), they've done a similar thing before, a seemingly haphazard approach to getting the product out there.
I don't see how Sony is ever going to compete with Canon/Nikon with any camera really, unless they can get their act together.
They also need people in Photographic Stores on side, and Sony Style outlets as well who are knowledgable about Sony cameras, DSLR's in particular, and have enough knowledgable representation that can get people on the front line enthusiastic about Sony gear.
Sony may have plenty of bean counters and financial wizkids, but they seem to be a bit thin on actual photographer orientated types in the right places.
Greg