Will All Future Alpha and CZ Stuff be Made in China?

[A1000]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090105/true_nm/us_sony_1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




It seems that Sony will be divesting its resources from the less-than-expected-performing BluRay and PS3. I think that not only cell phones, but DSLR's too will benefit.

[InTheSky]

I will answer to this question the the problem of quality do not comes from China.

You can build extreme quality production in China. This depend on how you are welling to pay and instruct them to do the job.

I have done a lot of translation for some Industries to push production to CM in China or Mexico.

The big problem with out source production is that usually there is some laws and instructions non written in the production floor. The result is that the CM is trying to do is best to give you the product as you want, but they are missing information and training on what is not given to them.

I can tell you that those people out there like there job and work very hard, and i can trust them to build very good product. But, they cannot look in your head to see what was your real needs.

Today we have some good quality control software and documented process, this just to the company to spend some $$$ and want to invest in long term. If Sony introduced there product there correctly, we will see good quality. If there are there only for the saving cost in labor and do not do there job to keep track of the quality, yes this will not be a success story.

Regards,

Frank

[fastson]

I hope not, not the camera gear at least. For other stuff with not as big quality control it of course will be an option.

The company I work for has moved some of its production to China. The result? Piss poor quality and added extra cost. Some things coming out of China is so bad we spend more money correcting the mistakes than it would cost to produce it in Europe. Funny.

[A1000]

No one can beat the Japanese when it comes to quality.

Just as the Germans are more precise than the Italians, the Japanese are more precise than the Chinese.

Things will be changing as Japanese business leaders are now pushing for the end of lifetime employment.

When the Japanese start their car production in the US, there is always US government pressure to use American parts. They refuse. Times, where they yealded to the pressure, quality went way down.

US govrnment does not pressure their companies to increase quality, but instead the forein ones to decrease theirs. The worst at it are the proponents of free market economy, the Republican administrations with their less inteligent leaders like George W.

[aster]

If one day, all Carl-Zeiss lenses for the Alphas or the other cameras were decidedly out-sourced to China for full production, they will never be the same Carl-Zeiss products to me. Not like the way I would consider and welcome one with a 'Made in Germany' tag/badge on it.

All this time, my personal experience with German products that came out of German production lines was the sole reason which built my confidence in them. I trust German quality control units, and if somehow something goes wrong with the product they are very responsive and eager in replacing it with a functional ona as fast as can be. All these qualities and more make paying for their high prices easy on the mind.

I would find it hard to justify paying the same amounts if they came from a production line in China at an unknown location which can't be tracked by the consumers. In fact , I don't think that I would even consider buying one.

Yildiz

[A1000]

In the US products are labeled with country of origin; when I was in Germany, these labels were missing.

I reember long time ago Popular Photography testing a number of Samsung compacts with Schneider lenses. The lenses performed extremely poorly. I guess Schneider just sold their name to them and they exploited it. Zeiss would not do it.

Kyocera claimed that their Yashica engineers could design as good lenses as Contax did for Kyocera's Contax cameras, if Yashica was allowed to make these lenses as expensive.

[peterottaway]

There are two separate issues here - outsourcing and " Made In China " and they need to be looked at as such.

Outsourcing where a company may be using 15 different factories all over China ( many of which did not exist 2 years ago ) and all the company is interested in is how many and how much. Many of the manufacturing plants are chopped and changed on a regular basis to get a fraction of a percent cheaper price and so the Chinese or Cambodian or whatever need to recover their costs from the current contract. There is no continuity of suppliers and of workers.

A joint venture etc is very different in that it involves a long term commitment from both sides and that it is in the interests of both sides to make things work over a number of years. Yes you do need to realise that the interests of the two parties are not the same, but that is true in any business arrangement. But you can control the what, the where and the how of the design, the production and the quality control. With time and effort then both sides of the deal can gain experience and knowledge and with that quality and consistency.

[aster]

There are two separate issues here - outsourcing and " Made In China " and they need to be looked at as such.

Outsourcing where a company may be using 15 different factories all over China ( many of which did not exist 2 years ago ) and all the company is interested in is how many and how much. Many of the manufacturing plants are chopped and changed on a regular basis to get a fraction of a percent cheaper price and so the Chinese or Cambodian or whatever need to recover their costs from the current contract. There is no continuity of suppliers and of workers.

A joint venture etc is very different in that it involves a long term commitment from both sides and that it is in the interests of both sides to make things work over a number of years. Yes you do need to realise that the interests of the two parties are not the same, but that is true in any business arrangement. But you can control the what, the where and the how of the design, the production and the quality control. With time and effort then both sides of the deal can gain experience and knowledge and with that quality and consistency.

Hi,

Even if it were a joint venture, it would still mean comprimises from the original Carl-Zeiss. People to be recruited for the jobs would have to catch up with all the intricacies of the production phases which means extra time consumption for education and an added expense. The source of the parts of the lenses may differ and the quality may be jeopordized. There is a comprimise from an original Carl-Zeiss and the new board members of the joint venture will make the decision of how much of the original can be comprimised due to varying thoughts of those who are making the investment.
It will never be like investing in an original that you know was manufactured at the 'home' of the brand. The thought will linger at the back of your mind that 'this product comes from a different source' of which you'll hardly be allowed to investigate in depth.

It would be like ordering your Mercedes-Benz automobile from the headquarters in Mainz, Germany, with all the extra features you personally listed and were assured of their top quality and then having your Mercedes shipped to you from a location in China. That wouldn't be the same as the Mercedes you would be getting from Mainz yourself and driving out the gallery at the headquarters in it knowing you actually got a car of German assembly line. A Mercedes assembled in China most probably will mean parts manufactured in that part of the world also and there always are liabilities in quality when this happens.

Therefore, I could hardly call it a genuine Carl-Zeiss and would be willing to pay for or use it. A new branding may be issued here and customers informed about the expectations as to the quality of parts and of course the assembly expertise.

Yildiz

[youpii]

I think it's time to realize that you live in a globalized world.
Both Mercedes and BMW have factories in China now.

Zeiss is no different
http://www.zeiss.com/C1256A770030BCE0/W ... enDocument" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cosina made a lot of crappy lenses but also some marvellous Voigtlander APO lenses and now produces Zeiss lenses for ZF & ZK mounts.

So I'd say the way you set up the factory and how you manage it is more important than the location...

[Dr. Harout]

I think it's time to realize that you live in a globalized world.
Both Mercedes and BMW have factories in China now.

Zeiss is no different
http://www.zeiss.com/C1256A770030BCE0/W ... enDocument" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cosina made a lot of crappy lenses but also some marvellous Voigtlander APO lenses and now produces Zeiss lenses for ZF & ZK mounts.

So I'd say the way you set up the factory and how you manage it is more important than the location...

One of the worst things that politicians (I prefer the French adapted word for it: politi-chien) could think of was the globalization. Time will come and everybody will understand... after great sufferings, unfortunately.

[peterottaway]

I can understand what Yildiz is saying, after all it was the very points she was making made Germany the largest exporting nation in the world.

But I would then refer to the VW Golf (even excluding the various Audi, Seat and Skoda variants) which is a major automotive success story but which is manufactured at a number of plants around the world.

In Australia the VW Golf has outsold any number of European rivals not simply because it is German - because very few of the Golf models sold here are German manufactured. But it has delivered a good product at a reasonable price point. Australian buyers have not in the past had any affection for diesel engines and when they are buying a Golf they are often downsizing from a larger engined car with an automatic transmission. What VW has done is delivered good modern diesel and petrol engines that have been mated with a transmission and computer drive system that the customers are comfortable with.

This is superiority in product development.

[aster]

I can understand what Yildiz is saying, after all it was the very points she was making made Germany the largest exporting nation in the world.

But I would then refer to the VW Golf (even excluding the various Audi, Seat and Skoda variants) which is a major automotive success story but which is manufactured at a number of plants around the world.

In Australia the VW Golf has outsold any number of European rivals not simply because it is German - because very few of the Golf models sold here are German manufactured. But it has delivered a good product at a reasonable price point. Australian buyers have not in the past had any affection for diesel engines and when they are buying a Golf they are often downsizing from a larger engined car with an automatic transmission. What VW has done is delivered good modern diesel and petrol engines that have been mated with a transmission and computer drive system that the customers are comfortable with.

This is superiority in product development.

Thank you Peter,

I'm glad I was able to express my point to at least one person quite this distinctively! As for the information on Australian VW sales due to some difference in operability in line with the demands of the times, I can gladly contribute and say that there are several German brands in Turkey that produce and manufacture along the lines of their Australian counterparts and meeting the needs of the Turkish citizens. They sell very well too. But this doesn't change the fact that what is manufactured in Germany will hold a different and leading place.

And Dr. Harout is right in his views of globalization at this rate. Some values should be grasped and held within their suitable borders of legacy whichever nation or country they pertain to. This makes the world richer and more abundant with variety whenever we seek them. And my point in my previous message above was not about globalization and how it must prevail anyway.

Thank you gentlemen, you understand! Bless you!
Yildiz

[A1000]

Guys, forget China; it is getting too expensive, Vietnam is now favorite, after that we'll have Taliban making the new Zeiss lenses.



http://www.observingjapan.com/2009/01/r ... erica.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For Morita Minoru, a longtime political commentator, something is rotten in the state of Japan.

"Japanese politicians," he writes, "have made serving the American government a priority when they should be focused on serving the Japanese people. Japan has lost its sovereignty to the United States. Our nation has been invaded and occupied by invisible forces."

[Dusty]

A lot of good points have been made here, and while I am willing to admit that the Chinese CAN make good quality products, there is a problem with Chinese manufacturing that often gets overlooked.

The Chinese, even more than Corporate America, are all abut the bottom line. And not JUST form a corporate perspective. How often have we heard about corrupt plant managers substituting inferior parts, or even hazardous ingredients, to save a few hundred bucks? In Europe/Japan/America it also happens, but only when the savings are in the millions. That's the difference between a standard of living of squalor and leisure.

I won't buy Chinese made crayons for my kids, because they often include lead. My wife, during her last pregnancy, had to seek alternative medicines because all the Heparin coming out of China was contaminated. All because a plant manager or too could make a few hundred more bucks!

There is also the fact that most Chinese factories change products at the drop of a hat, and the workers have neither the depth of knowledge nor the pride in workmanship that comes from long term making of a quality product.

Doc's right about globalization's effects. They're already being felt some places, and will come back to bite us all in the butt!

Dusty

[dynaxfl]

it's interesting to read some of these posts regarding to "made in China"... I guess right now China does not carry a good reputation due to various reason, but guys, will you fly Airbus or Boeing at all if you know the facts that China actually manufacture the wings or tail wings for those planes, scary, isn't it? LOL!!! I think probably just about 20 years ago, people would say the same thing about Japanese product; and 300 hundreds years ago, Chinese would probably say the same thing about American product as they are saying about Chinese product today. How funny to see the world has changed around, and it is still changing.

It really doesn't matter if the product is made in China or not, what really matters is the level of quality control that a company would enforce on Chinese factories. I think all of MacBook Pros and iPhones are all made in China, and I have to say they are darn good.