$1,000 FF Alpha - guess when

[Dusty]

If he really sits on as much equipment as he says, he probably has a fat pipe. That speeds up sending things. As to the 2 minute delay, there may be ways around it - I haven't tested that as it would (ethically) require DK's permission. He could also compose off-line, then cut and paste to the forums. At the same time he's probably blasting someone else in another forum on Dyxum or elsewhere.

Dusty

[PhotoTraveler]

Dunno, I don't have a slow connection.

I don't think it's a Pipe Size on our end, as a Tube Size on the PCA end of things.

[Greg Beetham]

Dunno, I don't have a slow connection.

I don't think it's a Pipe Size on our end, as a Tube Size on the PCA end of things.

Don has more than one computer and a few screens running at once, so I imagine he would have (had) a couple of copies of the forum running at the same time.... but yeah, he sure can pump out some stuff alright, awesome actually.
Greg

[InTheSky]

I'm agree, Full Frame will still be at higher price for a moment. Company need to make money, and they don't want to break the price. Commercial aspect are too important. If they wanted, Canon has been able to through out 12 mega pixels FF for 1500 $ base on the incredibly good 5D, but they not. This is I think the answer to this.

[bfitzgerald]

I think the most realistic point to aim for is the D300/50d/K7/A700 type bracket...(aka semi pro APS), to make a transition over to FF. How and when that will happen, who can say. I can't see APS-C sustain at over £1000 a body for much longer. If it ever reaches the upper low end bodies, is doubtful, but then you never know. How much did a DSLR cost 6 or 7 years ago? A lot of cash..

If the semi pro FF comes along, that will make life very hard for Olympus, and possible Pentax (who have no sign of FF on the horizon)

[Filmmaker]

$1,000 FF Alpha - Can you guess when?

There is no reason why FF should cost more than 2x as much as APS-C.

I estimate $2K FF this year, $1,5K next, $1,000 in 2011, even with strong Yen.

A1000 will be a pro body.

Zeiss is the magent for pros. Pros are the magnet for amateurs. See Sony's market share climbing.

If Sony combines their ClearVid technology w/EXMOR-R, we'll soon have a FF camera w/40 effective MP and 2x the sensitivity of D3x.

Since we are in the MP race, expect same sensitivity and 80 MP. The race will be who will first reach 100 effective MP, without reducing sensitivity. It will not take long. By that time we'll have new way of taking pictures and lenses, which will extend close to the CMOS, no OVF

I still estimate $2K FF this year, $1,5K next, $1,000 in 2011

This year Sony comes out with their 12 MP cell phones, without XMOR-R. Simply by adding their checkerboard ClearVid pattern to the sensor would mean that Sony can claim 25 MP effective resolution. Adding the XMOR-R technology means that if the density of pixels is increased to yield effective 50 MP resolution, the low light performance will still be the same. So you see that Sony has the technology now to produce 50 MP effective resolution cell phone sensors with the same low light performance as the current cell phones, and will soon have the technology to produce FF CMOS with 100 MP effective resolution, without scarifying low light performance. Photo Traveler described Sony design philosophy, when they have inventions always ready to include in product updates to up their competition and are always ready to counter any competition's advancements, but they do not bring out all their advancements to the market at once. That keeps their products in the forefront and allow them to constantly come out with improved models. The DSLR models Sony introduced so far were basically interim models. The new models, by which you can judge true Sony's, not Minolta's, design will be the A500/550 models. And do not expect the MP race to stop before reaching 100 MP in FF and 50 MP in cell phones. But at that time even newer technologies than ClearVid and XMOR-R will be used. Technology moves on. Not long ago the boards called to stop the MP race at 6MP. Then they loved Nikon's 12 MP FF. Now they would prefer a 24 MP one. So it's 6 to 12 to 24 to 50 to 100. 100 will be the magic number. The next one will be 1GP. It will have a lens element practically touching the sensor. You will not need a zoom lens. You could zoom from 19 to 200 mm digitally and still have 10 MP at 200 mm, from a very compact lens. Forget OVF. The new EVF's will be superior, with excellent resolution and will not get dim at night. The camera will take series of pictures from before you press the shutter to after. You'll play this sequence and will pick up the frame you like. Forget DSLRs! They are so much last century technology!

Do we need the new 100 MP technology? Of course! The picture taken will be time-wise and space-wise extended. You could pick a smaller portion of the frame and will not have to worry that you pressed the shutter a second later than you should have.

This is the main reason why Sony is in DSLR's - because the future is not DSLR, but video technology! And this is the reason why Sony does not plan to be #3, but #1.

[KevinBarrett]

Anybody remember the guy who gave his car a new air filter that would save him 25% in fuel economy, then he got new injectors that saved him 15% more, then low resistance tires saved him 30%, then a fuel additive saved him another 25%, and finally a synthetic motor oil saved him 10% more? It got to the point where every ten miles or so, he'd have to stop and take a picture of his overflowing gas tank with his 100 MP cell phone.

[stevecim]

$1,000 FF Alpha - Can you guess when?

This year Sony comes out with their 12 MP cell phones, without XMOR-R. Simply by adding their checkerboard ClearVid pattern to the sensor would mean that Sony can claim 25 MP effective resolution. Adding the XMOR-R technology means that if the density of pixels is increased to yield effective 50 MP resolution, .

Where did you get this info from? ClearVid is a sensor not just a pattern and it's used in Video Camera's and you use 3 of them , one each for red,blue,green
From Sony
"The HDR-FX1000 features three 1/3” ClearVid CMOS Sensors, each having 1,120K total pixels. The 3 independent CMOS sensors each handle one of the color elements – red, green, blue (RGB) – improving the color reproduction of video recordings."

They have a pixel grid that's tilted 45 degrees and they double the horizontal photo sites by interpolated pixels from 4 pixels rather than only using 2 pixel with normal ccd interpolation (pixel shifting)

This has nothing to do with cell phone sensors or DSLR sensors, I don't see many 3 x CMOS sensors in still cameras. ClearVid setup is about improving the quality video recording not about increasing effective resolution it helps with delivering better aliasing than pixel shifting (used with video CCD sensors) can. ClearVid is not a "pattern" that magically doubles the resolution of sensors. You can have a 3 mega pixel ClearVid SLR camera, I'l stick to my 14M a350

Cheers

[Birma]

If we will be getting cheap 50mp + sensors will the price of optics that are required to compliment them continue to be expensive. E.g. even if the A900 was <$1000, would the CZ glass required to get the best from it also be cheaper. In the last few years dslrs in general have continued to fall in price, but glass has gone up in the last 12 months. I am far keener on sub <$500 CZ or G lenses . I guess that it is the manual labour / expertise that keeps lens prices high deapite computer aided design etc.?

[Filmmaker]

ClearVid is used in single sensor Sony cameras. It gives nearly 2x the resolution. It allows Sony to get the same low light capability with 1/3" sensors as from 1/2" withou this technology, because the pixels can be larger.

Where did you get this info from? ClearVid is a sensor not just a pattern and it's used in Video Camera's and you use 3 of them , one each for red,blue,green
From Sony
"The HDR-FX1000 features three 1/3” ClearVid CMOS Sensors, each having 1,120K total pixels. The 3 independent CMOS sensors each handle one of the color elements – red, green, blue (RGB) – improving the color reproduction of video recordings."

They have a pixel grid that's tilted 45 degrees and they double the horizontal photo sites by interpolated pixels from 4 pixels rather than only using 2 pixel with normal ccd interpolation (pixel shifting)

This has nothing to do with cell phone sensors or DSLR sensors, I don't see many 3 x CMOS sensors in still cameras. ClearVid setup is about improving the quality video recording not about increasing effective resolution it helps with delivering better aliasing than pixel shifting (used with video CCD sensors) can. ClearVid is not a "pattern" that magically doubles the resolution of sensors. You can have a 3 mega pixel ClearVid SLR camera, I'l stick to my 14M a350

Cheers

[stevecim]

At Present Sony only use ClearVID in high end camcorders, it's not use in any still camera (for now)
From Sony

The most important feature of the ClearVid CMOS Sensor is its unique pixel array. Each pixel has been rotated 45º, and the color array has also been modified. By rotating each pixel 45º, Sony has almost doubled the size of each leading to enhanced sensitivity. The number of pixels appears to have been reduced, which would lead one to conclude that this arrangement cannot support advanced resolutions. However, the sensor has been designed to compensate by taking advantage knowledge regarding human eye perception, including the tendency of the eye to perceive images containing a high percentage of luminescence or "brightness" as having a higher resolution, and a higher sensitivity to vertical and horizontal resolution than to diagonal resolution. Green has the greatest influence on brightness, so Sony placed three times more green pixels (compared with other conventional sensors) around the other colors, thereby compensating for the loss of resolution.



Seems like ClearVid is about adding more green sensors thereby compensating for the loss of resolution. Yes you get higher sensitivity from larger photo sites but at a "Loss of Resolution"
This works for Video, don't know if it would work for Still images? David would the extra green sensor make a different for high res photos?. I would still rather have a 14M pixel camera rather than a 6M pixel sensor thats interpolated to get 12. If I was a high ISO shooter then maybe higher sensitivity is more important than high resolution?

But it may work. I just don't know. from what limited knowldge I have in this area I think the Alpha would benefit more from a back-illuminated "Exmor R" sensor with out ClearVid array, that way you gain extra sensitivity from having the sensor back-illuminated but you still keep the higher resolution of a standard Exmor array.

A good test would be to compare the 12M pixels effective images you can get from a HDR-XR520V which uses 1/2.88” "Exmor R" 6M pixel CMOS image sensor with ClearVid™ array: and the images you get from a a700 's 12M pixel Exmor non ClearVid array.

[bakubo]

The most important feature of the ClearVid CMOS Sensor is its unique pixel array. Each pixel has been rotated 45º, and the color array has also been modified. By rotating each pixel 45º, Sony has almost doubled the size of each leading to enhanced sensitivity.

Isn't this what Fuji did with their CCD several years ago?

[stevecim]

Isn't this what Fuji did with their CCD several years ago?

Fuji have their Super CCD that uses octagonal, rather than rectangular, pixels.

Super CCD SR Pro - High Sensitivity ISO3200 & High S/N Ratio


“R” pixel for extended dynamic range, “S” pixel for high sensitivity

Emulating the composition of negative film, the unique double-photodiode matrix of Super CCD SR Pro consists of 6.17 million high-sensitivity S-pixels with large light receptor area and 6.17 million R-pixels for wide dynamic range with small light receptor area. The large 23.0mm x 15.5mm CCD with its high resolution canvas of 12.3 million effective pixels also achieves a dynamic range of 400%, approaching that of negative film. Also its optimized optical low pass filter enables high resolution while minimizing moiré. Achieving both high resolution and high S/N ratio, it captures subjects in clear, exquisite detail.

so they say

[bakubo]

Okay, that's right. Fuji had a honeycomb pattern. I was thinking of this older ccd rather than the one you show:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fuji6800z/

[stevecim]

Okay, that's right. Fuji had a honeycomb pattern. I was thinking of this older ccd rather than the one you show:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fuji6800z/

Yer your right, both the Fuji Super CCD and the Sony ClearVid arange the sensors in a diamond shaped grid and use interpolation to get the pixel count up.