What is the count in the entire world? Maybe 50 posters

[tom power 53]

Who are constantly carping about some features that Sony has stolen from their Minolta's - and how much better Canikon, Panasonic, Olympus and Pentax are in providing for enthusiasts.

Many of these folks also talking about how much better their Minolta 7D is even than Sony's current offerings. I really wonder sometimes just exactly what switch in the brain is turned on when something new is introduced that takes people out of their comfort zone.

To me the math reads 10 areas of improvement, 5 new features 2 areas of loss. Wow this new camera is really cool.

To these other folks the math reads 2 areas of loss the other things should be there anyway. Wow what is wrong with Sony?

Kudos to Sony for innovating - lots of mistakes - lots of progress - net net a huge gain. No I am not going to switch systems because I can't have an OV as long as the new EVs are good enough. No the new EVs are not going to give the exact same look as the old OV's - better in some ways and worse in others. Net net they will be a gain or people won't buy them.

Forward or backward there is no way to stand still in business. Sony is moving forward - not without goofs.

[bfitzgerald]

Surely you jest? I would not use the word "stolen", it would be more appropriate to say "removed"
I don't need to list them again, needless to say I expect a 2010 DSLR to offer everything (yes everything) that a 2005 DSLR does.
Is that such a hard request?
Go back over the history of Minolta yes they made "goofs" as well. However you will see over time (and for any maker) a progression of models, improvements that trickle down from higher end bodies to lower ones (to a point of course)

Sony's current range consists of:
A290/390: Heavily crippled entry models with dated CCD and worst in class in many areas (find a slower than 2.5 fps or a camera without an AEL button!)
A33/55: Consumer orientated high fps EVF designed to appeal to new shooters and video wannabes (IMO)
A560/580: So called mid level bodies one of which is delayed for 6 months to meet the needs of newbie shooters
A7xx: Currently vapour ware and an EVF model
A850/A900: FF models

Now I can spot some problems there but maybe you missed it.
So I'll repeat what the problem is.
Sony= Consumer/newbie/crossover stills video shooter (mostly bar FF models)
They are not making products for enthusiast or photographers.

[tom power 53]

No I am not jesting. A55 for $750 is far from a joke.

Not exactly what I want as a step up from my A700 but think the A77 will be.

You don't have to be a consumer to like the A560/580/33/55 - at the price these are selling for they are unbelieveable compared to what you could get a couple of years ago and the features/IQ they offer. Take off the blinders and weigh the plusses and minuses.

[bfitzgerald]

The A55 is not interesting to me..strip away the translucent and high FPS it's not particularly appealing
It's also selling at £700 odd (£650 body only) that's not really a great price either (I can get a 50d for less and a D90)

The A560 might have interested me..but Sony in their infinite wisdom decided to delay production to appease Soccer Moms ala sensor shortages.

The translucent models are not unbelievable, they are juiced up point and shoot models 2 trick ponies (EVF and fast FPS)
What is unbelievable is you can spend the best part of £700 odd and still not get a well featured camera. I am not interested in sweep panorama, smile shutters, GPS. I want good handling, a decent OVF, well built and a solid spec. Yet where is it???

[Dusty]

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle here. I recognize Sony's progress in some areas, and that they think their market is mostly P&S upgraders or those that want video. Their concentration on the 'purist' SLR segment like Barry is lacking.

Personally, I like more MPs and I like the GPS feature.

I like the MPs because I learned in Large/Medium Format film that it's better to go wide and crop then not get everything you want. I like the GPS because I've done a LOT of travel over the years, and memories fade. Knowing I took a certain photo at Sopot, Poland on April 12, 1986, and not in Gdansk on April 11, means a bit to me. The fact that I can also tell that I was on the dock with the camera pointed NE to Hel and not straight East to Krinica is also of value to me. (Of course, most important of all is that I was with one of the 10 most beautiful women in the world, something I'll never forget!)

I think that the feature set on the 580 matches me pretty well, except for the no x-sync terminal, so I'm sure I'll be satisfied. Would I like more features? Not really any that I'm willing to pay for. I rarely used DOF preview on my film SLR, but I did at times and miss it occasionally. MLU is the same. That's why I've been fairly satisfied with my 350. The fact that they're back is just icing on the cake.

I may use video once in a great while. I used it just once on my old P&S. I like LV, and have found it useful on my 350. I 'm not so obsessed as Barry with 100% viewfinder coverage or larger VF image size. I use the VF mostly for framing. If I need to see exactly what's going on in a shot, I've normally got the camera on a tripod, subject pre-framed and I'm looking with 2 eyes at the scene with a finger on the remote. I actually like a bit of VF cut-off because I like to have more in the image and cut some away, so surprising my with another 2-4% is fine by me.

I have not real need for a super high ISO if it will hamper my low ISO. In fact, I wish they expanded the ISO range downward. I'd rather set ISO 25 than add ND filters. If I need anything higher than 6400, I need night vision. I never used film higher than 1600 ISO, but will admit to taking a few indoor shots of a concert at 3200. Instead of high ISO wars, let's eke out a few more stops of Dynamic Range. HDR is nice, but a kludge. I'd rather the sensor did it all in one shot.

One of the problems we face is the fact that going digital (and auto focus) binds our hands in ways that film never did. ISO is a case in point. This is just getting used to the new paradigm, it happens with all technological advances. Also, all this tech cost $ that no-one wants to shell out for until it comes down to their comfort zone.

I think Sony need to pay more attention to the Barrys for enthusiast input and grab market share from the P&S-ers with their new 'feature light' models.

Dusty

[bfitzgerald]

Dusty there is no reason Sony cannot cater for various types of users. They've got enough models out there.
I believe they choose not to court enthusiasts and only go for newer type shooters or those who don't want customisation or much in the way of "traditional well featured etc"

I'm not saying there are not some nice bits in the A580 for example, but the ask price of £650 odd for a body that actually has a slightly worse VF than my Km5d (which is old) and the A200 (which was DIRT cheap) kinda sums it up for me..Sony don't care about OVF users.

[tom power 53]

Dusty - Yes I agree mostly with what you ar saying.

Sony is neglecting the "purist" market somewhat as they have realized not many will switch to the A sysstem even if it is somewhat better than Canikon. Wouyld have to be way better for people to switch systems in any significant numbers.

They have decided to build from the bottom up and to me the new cameras are doing just that. Once people get used to the features Sony provides few will even think about switching to canikon and will move up the Sony ladder. JMO.

[tom power 53]

Barry they could cater to the more advanced user as they have in the past and they will with the A77. More important to their business plan has been developing products for new customers. This it seems they have finally become successful at. Whether you like them or not the NEX and A33/55 are huge hits and the NEX will do nothing but get even bigger with the new UI.

They are not going to take market share away from Canikon by just building a similar - or slightly better - camera. People will just not switch for that. Sony finally figured that out after the dismal response to the absolutely outstanding A900. A flop on the market not because of it's features and quality but because people at that level simply do not want to switch camera brands - too much invested in their system.

Sony needed something innovative and they did it successfully - albeit at the expense of a few enthusuasts.

[bfitzgerald]

Was the A900 a flop? I really have no idea at all.

[tom power 53]

Yes in terms of sales it was a flop. This was the best priced featured performing FF at the time of it's introduction. If it had been put out by Nikon it would have been a huge seller.

[Dusty]

I'm not saying there are not some nice bits in the A580 for example, but the ask price of £650 odd for a body that actually has a slightly worse VF than my Km5d (which is old) and the A200 (which was DIRT cheap) kinda sums it up for me..Sony don't care about OVF users.

Alright Barry, now you're either just griping, or comparing apples to oranges.

The A100 had a price of $899 US when it hit the market in 2006, I don't know what the 5D went for. Neither can hold a candle to my 350 in image performance, and the newer sensors will give even more. If you're doing 4x6 prints at low ISO you're not going to notice, but give me hi-res photos at ISO 400 or 800 and I'll blow yours away.

On top of that there are numerous other improvements, noise, focus accuracy and speed, LV, not an essential, but I've found it nice at times in both macro work and in using it as a waist level viewfinder.

The 580 gives back some of your missing features, and sacrifices 3% in the viewfinder over the 5D. That with 1.6 times the MPs, GPS and higher FPS (2 features I know you're not looking for, but the times, they are a changin'). And all of this for a body only price of $799 US.

You want to tell me again what a bargain that A100 was? Maybe you bought it as it was going out, and got a deal, but in 2 years I bet I can get a 580 for around $600.

This is where you blow it for so many of us, Barry, you cant ignore all the advancements and complain that one missing minor feature makes the camera less than what you had back in the day.

Dusty

[peterottaway]

Barry in some ways you are correct about cameras such such as the A 33/55 because I am buying the A55 to use as others would choose a P& S camera. I am also buying it as a backup body to my A850. In effect this is the first camera design with the technology to act as a genuine crossover camera.

There are plenty of functions when I want to take family / social snaps but am there to enjoy myself as well. Most P & S cameras would do the job but I find them frustrating - UI, physical controls, shutter/ focus lag etc. The A55 with the CZ 16mm - 80mm is perfect for these events as well as general events such as the annual agricultural show, the Avon Flying 50 vintage car races and so on.

Since buying my A850, my A700 has been largely sitting on a shelf as a backup camera. An expensive backup that I have not needed. The A700 is almost the same size and weight as the A850 and I would prefer something more convenient especially if travelling.

The A700 has been used for junior sport as the APS x 1.5 form factor gives good reach and 12 MP JPEG quality is more than enough and a lot quicker to process. But again the A55 will prove to be just as good if not better.

Although I do accept that for people like Walt who want an A7xx this is not a valid argument as they want a top line replacement without going to the extra cost etc of a FF camera.The Axx range not only me but to those looking for a " high performance " P & S do offer a good new alternative.

[Greg Beetham]

I did a specification compare between the A100 and the A580 and yes the new cam has undoubtedly got more new features and higher specs. for various things for sure, but what such a spec. comparison don't show you is whether the new camera has such things as Pa and Ps modes or if the AEL button still functions the same way as on the A100 (in ALL it's individual features including spot and toggle, AE flash bal). The new camera has a DOFP button like the A100 so that's ok, looks like back too normal on that front.
Not sure if there is any kind of MLU, I don't see it listed in the specs, unless I missed it, and I'm not sure about the function of A-mode, whether the camera can use a non oem chipped lens in A-mode or not, the A100 can fire the shutter without a lens on the camera at all if you want.
The quick LV and tilting rear screen (displaying the focus point?) is potentially very handy for macro, especially in mag. live view for manual focus fine tuning, but does the camera have DMF mode like the A100? or do you have too turn off the AF in the middle of everything?
The rear screen is very good, it has a much finer dot pitch than the A100's but a bigger (3" vs 2.5") higher res. screen is going too use more power than a smaller lower res. one, and the A580 uses the same small battery that's in the NEX (a 1080mAh vs. 1650mAh), so you have a situation where the camera has a higher res. screen and a higher res. sensor necessitating a more powerful GPU/CPU to have fast response times/data throughput but using a much smaller battery at the same time....and even though the camera uses a smaller battery and much smaller memory modules (MS-SD vs. CF-MS) the camera is actually larger in all dimensions than an A100.
Personally I don't like the on-off switch being now Nikon-ish, around the shutter button style, I much prefer the left thumb switch and the right index finger being already ON the shutter button when you turn the camera on...and you can more easily look down and see the left switch too see what position it's in than the Nikon switch if you have a reasonably heavy lens on the camera and using a neck strap.
I'm also not a big fan of having the mode dial on the left, both the A100 and KM5D have it on the right and it's much easier too access than the one on the A700 which is on the left, if you dont particularly want to take your left hand off the zoom collar that is.
I also am not keen on the amount the folding screen projects out too the rear on these folding/tilting screen cameras, it would make seeing through the OVF even more difficullt than it was before.
Greg

[emarsh72]

The a560/580 uses the np-fm500h battery. The same one that is used by the a700,200,300,350, etc. It does not use the same battery as the nex. The a55/33 uses the same battery as the Nex 5/3.

[Greg Beetham]

The a560/580 uses the np-fm500h battery. The same one that is used by the a700,200,300,350, etc. It does not use the same battery as the nex. The a55/33 uses the same battery as the Nex 5/3.

Not according too this specification list. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/S ... lra580.asp
Greg