Canon EOS 70D announced

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classiccameras
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

I wonder just what type of progress Canon need to do with the sensor, more MP perhaps to join the race. I guess there has been some updates in the processor and soft ware for the 70D but I suspect Canon adopt the attidude, if it aint broke don't fix it.

Canon are still in a strong position in the DSLR market and I doubt they would do any thing stupid to jeopardise that. Its a good reliable system to buy into, at least it looks like they have the right people in charge.

Listening to all our gripes and moans about Sony, I wonder if similar things are going on with other brand forums. The 4/3 owners are not happy with Olympus, lets be fare, there are thousands of 4/3 users and lens owners round the world who have been given a take it or leave it ultimatum by Olympus, If you want to continue to use your glass, then you can buy our new very expensive body and adaptor or stick with the old 4/3 tech.
Having said that, 4/3 was dead in the water the day it was launched and no body wanted to admit that or concede it was inferior to APS-C. It still is in my book. Reviewers mostly slated the 4/3 format and Olympus partly blamed them for the slump in sales and eventual stoppage of the 4/3 bodies. Olympus UK maintain that 4/3 lens production is still on going, Hmmm. for what?
I think the picture quality from my A37 is as good and in some respects better than an OM-D.
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

I wonder just what type of progress Canon need to do with the sensor, more MP perhaps to join the race. I guess there has been some updates in the processor and soft ware for the 70D but I suspect Canon adopt the attidude, if it aint broke don't fix it.

Canon are still in a strong position in the DSLR market and I doubt they would do any thing stupid to jeopardise that. Its a good reliable system to buy into, at least it looks like they have the right people in charge.

Listening to all our gripes and moans about Sony, I wonder if similar things are going on with other brand forums. The 4/3 owners are not happy with Olympus, lets be fare, there are thousands of 4/3 users and lens owners round the world who have been given a take it or leave it ultimatum by Olympus, If you want to continue to use your glass, then you can buy our new very expensive body and adaptor or stick with the old 4/3 tech.
Having said that, 4/3 was dead in the water the day it was launched and no body wanted to admit that or concede it was inferior to APS-C. It still is in my book. Reviewers mostly slated the 4/3 format and Olympus partly blamed them for the slump in sales and eventual stoppage of the 4/3 bodies. Olympus UK maintain that 4/3 lens production is still on going, Hmmm. for what?
I think the picture quality from my A37 is as good and in some respects better than an OM-D.
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

Sorry about that must have sent it twice
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

There seems to be a huge number of threads on the 4/3rd subject lately at dpr, some or most complain about the focus and some complain about the complaints etc. some complain about the cost of the new body, but largely I think most don’t ‘get it’ If you want video and focus during video then there are going to be tradeoffs for other aspects of the camera, there might be a design solution for accuracy and speed (SLT) but the tradeoff is light loss and some other glitchy bits, there might be a another way of doing it like on sensor CDAF/PDAF but that also involves light loss and the speed aspect is nothing to write home about either apparently, also follow focus isn’t up with prosumer class DSLR’s either.
Bottom line so far there are going to be trade-offs as long as people want video stuffed into their still camera.
Greg
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

Greg
Absolutely spot on, if you want to take movies buy a cam corder.
These cameras are being compromised for their dual role.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

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http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/9

DPR have their AF testing up and I have to say if I'd paid £1000 odd for a 70d with that bad an AF system (for normal phase detect) I'd be pretty annoyed.
Clearly it's got back focus problems across multiple lenses, even stopped down the 70d is missing badly with it's normal phase detect AF. (the poster shot is out even at f4 on the Sigma)

I know first hand that no AF system is perfect, and some variation can be expected esp at fast apertures, but looking at that if I were Canon I'd ship a new unit out fairly quickly..or throw money at them and beg them to take it down!!!
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

For all their failings [grossly exagerated by some review sites] and some less than complimentary reviews of Sony cameras, I don't think we realise how lucky we are with a camera brand that suffers far less from some of the issues we read about on Canikon and others.
No camera is perfect and probably never will be, but after all the cameras I have been through since DSLR's started, the Sony SLT has been the most enjoyable to use and have given me some of the most pleasing pictures.
I have grown to be a big fan, I never managed that with Canikon or Pentax, but my old Olympus E-510 comes a close second.
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

I've not had any serious AF issues to date with Sony (some have DK said he has A58 AF issues)
Prior to that I had nothing but AF problems with Nikon and Pentax (though the K-x was ok accuracy wise)

Nikon's AF was being blunt a disaster and completely unreliable, across 5 bodies and multiple lenses.
I'm just surprised Canon's AF on the 70d sample here is "that bad"

Real world yes it's not shocking there is a variation (to a point - not this much though) in phase detect AF, but when you start taking shots of black and white test charts these are ideal for any AF system to lock onto. The degree of misfocus across a number of lenses screams to me that DPR have a very poorly adjusted AF 70d sample. The inevitable suggestion is how common an issue is this? I would not accept that kind of performance from any camera be it a £299 one, and def not a £1000 one.

I learnt the hard way that AF Micro adjustments are NOT a substitute for a well calibrated AF system, if the AF is off it's going to be off for every lenses you put on it, the DPR shots scream to me that the AF is just not right. Making adjustments for every lens is a sign something is badly wrong. And I spent a lot of time trying to tame things on the D7000 with that.

But you never get focus consistency with AF fine tuning, it's only there for the odd lens that might be "a tad off" if your shots are that off, you have a serious issue with your AF. I'm surprised Canon would send DPR a camera with AF issues, I'm even more surprised they actually put up a review page on it knowing it was defective.

I've used a lot of cameras over the years, and AF is never nor ever will be perfect (too many variables), but it's 2013 now and phase detect AF has been around a good while, if makers continue to put out shoddy AF DSLR's at that price point, it's extremely worrying.

With those shots on DPR I'd doubt my Km5d's would have any problems (my original Km5d destroyed the Nikon's for AF accuracy across the board hands down), they are dead easy AF targets. I'm not sure what's more sloppy, Canon's AF or DPR's poor journalism skills. Very worrying..but still I'd run a mile from a 70d after seeing that shocking set of big miss AF shots.
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

I wouldn't mind betting that Canon sent DPR a 70D that had done a few reviews all ready and DPR just accepted it as the next camera to review and never questioned is calibration prior to testing. Probably laziness on their part.

My Olympus was one of the better cameras for focus accuracy and were often praised for this in reviews.

The Pentax Kx was probably the best low/mid range model Pentax had produced.
The Kr which came out later was again not a bad camera with more info in the OVF, but it never reached the Kx's IQ. Its still a desirable camera if you can find one.
Can you fine tune the focus on the A57?
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

No AF fine tune on the A57. There was a de-bug mode on the K-X for AF where you could over ride the calibration (not per lens but overall)
K-r has a general AF tune not per lens. K-r IQ was pretty much the same as the K-x (more neutral colours though) and it had a defective AF module for low kelvin light as per my problems, never fixed by Pentax...K-5 shares a similar faulty AF module too.

K5II not tried but I assume that's the AF module been updated and fixed, same for other Pentax models. Nikon are not the only maker who didn't fix problems and released new models! After my own experiences I'd not touch a Nikon or Pentax just on the shoddy AF and QC. Canon I thought were a bit better than that though those are big misses for AF in the real world you'd have big problems with a performance like that.

K-3 looks nice has to be said, but again once bitten, twice shy with camera makers. Sony don't have a perfect record either has to be said but still the A57 has AF that wipes the floor with the D7000...39 AF point system that literally can't hit the side of a barn door. Dodgy AF is a major frustration it can ruin even a nice camera (both the Pentax and Nikon models were good in most other ways) but who wants to dump 50-60% of their photos just down to lousy AF performance.

Will be interesting to see if other 70d's have that same problem, I have used a 7d and that seemed good for AF so I'm surprised the 70d is that bad as it has the same AF system. QC is probably the reason seems makers are struggling to get to grips with this and it's pretty important really.

If you are stopping lenses down to f4 and still missing (as per DPR tests poster and the focus test pattern) that is a very obvious sign something is very wrong. My D7k was so bad it was missing at f8 at times, these are not small misses (which might not matter much in day to day use) they are huge misses look at the poster and at 3 apertures the 70d missed every shot. That is atrocious for any phase detect AF system.
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

In the old 35 mm SLR days and manual focus lenses, the cameras usually had a fresnal screen and split image finder, things were probably as accurate as your eye sight was. Any slight missed focul point was usually covered by depth of field [if the lens was stopped down enough] and thus not noticable. This should be the same case with digital.

I found focus peaking on the A37/57 very good indeed and prefer it most of the time for landscape. I use a nedium 'red' high light on the focus peak which really does enhance the visual adjustment.
Yeah, read the DPR on the 70D and concur what you say. I don't think the older 60D suffered in the same way, which in my view is still a good buy, if you like Canon that is.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Yes the normal PDAF in the D70 is slightly off with that 85/1.8 lens, the on sensor PDAF didn’t miss though.
I see further down they gave the lens -10 micro adjustment and it then focused the same with both PDAF’s, but that should also be confirmed in low light situations too.
The calendar or whatever shot might not be a super sharp photo itself but the normal PDAF sure missed that one big-time, with a Sigma zoom, the on sensor PDAF to the rescue…again.
The dpr studio scene comparison for the 70D seems pretty good in comparison to other cameras http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/11 focus wise, but I don’t know how they actually focus for those shots because the D7000 shot looks like it focused reasonably well also and that is rare for that camera by all accounts.
The interesting thing for me though was the on-sensor predictive AF didn’t work during live view and continuous shot mode, that’s where all on-sensor AF has failed so far, the D70 rear screen goes blank and the focus seems to stay set on the first focus for successive shots which sounds pretty useless.
They say in the dpr preview you use the traditional PDAF for predictive AF, which works in a continuous fashion, and the on-sensor PDAF for accurate single still shots.
My question is why when using live view does focus seem to work ok in video but not for stills? the camera is supposed to BE a still camera first and foremost…right? so shouldn’t the AF work for stills even better than it works for video?
Greg
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by classiccameras »

This is what you get trying to make a camera do 2 jobs.
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by bakubo »

Barry had a chance to try out the 70D and wrote about it in another thread. For the future if someone finds this thread about the 70D I will link to his comments here.

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... 616#p84613
bfitzgerald wrote:I've now tried a 70d (which a pal bought) and can report the AF on sensor works very well, it's not quite as fast as the OVF phase detect..but it's not hugely slower either. No signs of the obvious DPR bad focus sample either (this one seemed good)
I'm not really into Canon, but I think they have a winner with the 70d I can see it selling well.
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bakubo
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Re: Canon EOS 70D announced

Unread post by bakubo »

bakubo wrote:I played with the 100D a couple of times in Japan recently. It is quite small, but the design works pretty well. It has a bit of the same issue as the NEX cameras though: small body with big lenses. The 100D isn't as small as a NEX though so the lenses, depending on which one you mount, don't feel as weird as some of the NEX combos. Some Canon lenses that I mounted on it were fairly small and felt okay on it and those are also the lenses that probably most 100D buyers would be interested in.

Here is what I suspect. Canon will sell many, many, many more 100D cameras than Sony sold A230, A330, A380 cameras. Those Sony models were also quite small, but much more uncomfortable to hold and the features and specs were decidedly poor. The 100D that I played with seemed to be pretty good and, I imagine, there will be buyers who will like it. I could even imagine it as a travel backup for someone who is using a 60D, 70D, or 7D since the 100D would take up so little space in a bag.
I saw this posted this morning:

DPReview Gear of the Year: Canon Rebel SL1 / EOS 100D

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/496660 ... 1-eos-100d

Sorry that I haven't been around here much. Been sort of busy doing various things. Over the last couple of months I have scanned about 4000 old slides and negatives. Still doing some each day and am doing some as I write this. That is on top of the several thousand that I have scanned since I first started scanning in 1998/99.
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