Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

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Greg Beetham
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Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I have suspicions about on chip AF and exposure that seems to be the trend now, just how manipulated is the image after the colour association/substitution has been done? (To replace the missing pixels)
I have an issue with the above when applied to astrophotography, how much can one depend on the accuracy of same? An asteroid coming to visit could be just a tiny speck among thousands of specks but what if that speck doesn’t show up in the photo?
You need to be able to confirm the presence or absence of new and unknown (many turn out to be known objects) tiny specks by comparing with matching small sky segments taken on successive nights trying to find any of the specks that have moved slightly in that time, (none should move in relation with the others except for local solar system objects) but in order for that to be effective you need a camera that records what it takes accurately.
What you don’t need is a camera that invents stuff, (or deletes things) any camera that does that in my view is just a kid’s toy.
How accurate will images from these new sensors be now and in the future?
For general photography it probably won’t matter too much if there is some artistic license involved but what if you really need accuracy?
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by classiccameras »

Move over to a 70D! Facetious reply I know, but this new Canon makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

Yes that’s interesting Barry, I agree with him. I see he’s concerned about Leica catching the frivolous disease too. :roll:
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by classiccameras »

So the new Pentax K3 has arrived, see first reviews from DPr and EphotoZone.
24MP, but still APS-C. All they need now is some decent glass to go on the front.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

classiccameras wrote:So the new Pentax K3 has arrived, see first reviews from DPr and EphotoZone.
24MP, but still APS-C. All they need now is some decent glass to go on the front.
Yeah a Ricoh that looks almost exactly like a Pentax. I don’t think the ‘Ricoh’ on the rear screen will bother too many Pentax users though, as long as they make new cameras now and then.

It looks pretty good actually, from the specs anyway, although they (dpr) didn’t sound overly enthusiastic about the AF. Why are there two buttons for AF? One on the left side front and another on the rear right, is one supposed to be a DMF button?

I see there is a mode on the dial for ‘sensitivity priority’ and that should be a popular mode one would think. At a guess though the sensor would be compromised to some extent as it does video, I have no idea if they are like Nikon and get Sony to customize the sensors to their own specs.

The flash sync speed is 1/180sec which is adequate but not as fast as one would expect in this day and age, the D7100 has 1/250sec, I suppose too get it up to a rating of 200,000 actuations Pentax needed to have a less stressed slower cycle time shutter.
I don’t know anything about the Pentax flash system, like does the AEL button work with the flash like the Minolta system? it seems to have all the other necessary modes listed in the specs though and I hope there aren’t any delayed reactions with the flash. That’s one thing that doesn’t seem to crop up in most reviews…tests of the flash systems.

And I don’t know how the LCD switches off when you look through the OVF without having a sensor for that, does one have to turn it off manually?
A assume it being basically a DSLR without an EVF the camera switches on when you turn it on, and off when you turn it off, without lengthy delays.
I like that there is a dedicated ‘mirror lockup’ position listed in the drive modes, not just via the 2sec timer.

Why do manufacturers have to have 24MP in an APS-C sensor? 18MP is probably overkill, it’ll be interesting to see how it performs at even ordinary high ISO, not at ridiculous high ISO don’t care about that myself, 24MP in the A77 wasn’t a resounding success for high ISO, but at least the K3 doesn’t have the SLT mirror penalty.

The new anti-aliasing method sounds interesting, with a choice of none, a little, or a bit more, all done with the anti-shake system, very clever.
The lenses are a problem for Pentax I think, for the uninitiated that is. With new lens prices on the expensive side, how would the average guy who isn’t familiar with Pentax know if a used lens, if you can even find one, is useful or not? I suppose there is the Tamron/Sigma option also.

Pentax seem to have fallen from Tokina’s good graces, you have to look hard to find a lens listed for Pentax, only in the archived list from what I can see. http://www.tokinalens.com/tokina/products/archive/ (Tokina only make FF lenses for Canon and Nikon it seems, none listed for Sony)

What’s the use of listing a lens in the archived list anyway? it’s something along the lines of, here is a whole list of lenses that aren’t for sale…They might as well dream up a whole bunch of non-existing lenses (with photos), equivalents to everyone else’s lenses, 500/4, 600/4 etc. and put em in there just to prove they would have had em if they weren’t archived. :roll:
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by classiccameras »

Greg

From reading little snippets here and there on the Nikon forum, it seems, and I have no proof so don't quote me, Nikon moved over to a Toshiba 24mp sensor for their D5200 and possibly other models as they were not too impressed with the noise levels from the Sony unit. The older Sony 16mp sensor was very much in favour. I personally think Nikon went over to Toshiba for price rather than any thing else, but who knows the real reasons.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

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On paper it looks great (ticks most of the boxes bar flash sync speed for this class of camera) Intro price of just over £1000 isn't OTT either will surely drop to under 1000 sterling soon enough.

Problems...well from what I can see and having used a K-5 I'm not keen on the changes to handling. They've dumped the metering mode dial for a lock/no lock setting on the main exposure mode dial and made metering a shared function button. On the other side they have a switch for LV and movie and a red button for record, sure to please DPR (sigh) but it doesn't look like a good design to me as it robs another item. That is the old AF mode selection switch it's gone now, and it's now another button above the AF/MF Selection (I give credit to Nikon they did it right with the switch also allowing AF Mode selection), doesn't look like it's as well thought out here.

On the K-5 you had to press and hold (for about a second) the "ok" button to allow you to change AF points. Not ideal (problem was the press and hold delay) This time it looks like the AF point selection is done with yet another dual function button, shared with the card slot button (do they need a button for cards?) and the top AF button? Seems odd to have AF buttons all over the place

So mixed bag on handling here a few backward steps possibly. Knowing Pentax they will probably let you customise most of the buttons which might help
As for 24mp that was a dead cert, I'm not convinced 24mp is needed (by the vast majority) but marketing and games as usual

Overall it looks pretty good, bit of a slap in the face for Canikon who have failed to update their top end APS-C models for a long time.
As for the Ricoh and the name branding of Pentax, the vibe I got from Ricoh a few years back was basically some nice ideas but just another "arrogant Japanese company", hate to keep using that but they were pretty poor at taking hands on user feedback years ago and I doubt much has change. They think they're something more than they really are. I've seen enough from most camera makers to see many are out of touch with users and buyers. Look at the Nikon fiasco with the D600, and D7000 never admitting to problems, just releasing newer models to correct problems. Pentax have done that in the past too.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by bakubo »

Greg Beetham wrote:Yeah a Ricoh that looks almost exactly like a Pentax. I don’t think the ‘Ricoh’ on the rear screen will bother too many Pentax users though, as long as they make new cameras now and then.
In the past I never heard anyone who was bothered by Pentax cameras that also had Asahi or Honeywell on them, but that was then. By the way, from wikipedia I found this interesting tidbit about the origin of the Pentax name:

In 1952 Asahi Optical introduced its first camera, the Asahiflex (the first Japanese SLR using 35mm film). The name "Pentax" was originally a registered trademark of the East German VEB Zeiss Ikon (from "Pentaprism" and "Contax") but, as all Germans patents were annulled with the country's defeat, the name "Pentax" was taken by the Asahi Optical company in 1957.

I wonder if all the Japanese patents were also annulled after the war and if any German companies took a Japanese name? Does anyone know if Mitsubishi (三菱), for example, is still a Japanese brand? :lol:
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I don’t know whether any German company would have wanted to adopt Mitsubishi as a trading name shortly after the war, probably not, the most notable engineering success that thrust them to prominence in the West was their A6 fighter plane and that in turn was associated with the surprise attack on Pearl Harbour.
So all in all H I think the Mitsubishi brand would have had significant drawbacks…marketing wise in those days, especially in the US.
I can’t quite get my head around a theme…
I doubt ‘Youhoo remember us? we’re back and have we got a deal for you’ would have worked in the short term. :lol:
A6M3_Model22_UI105_Nishizawa.jpg
A6M3_Model22_UI105_Nishizawa.jpg (138.36 KiB) Viewed 8256 times
Image courtesy of Wiki

But as often has been said, the best thing that can happen to a country is to be invaded by the US and Mitsubishi went on to be one of the world’s most prominent companies, they eventually by way of thanks invaded the US and took over Chrysler without firing a shot, proving that the pen is mightier than the sword.
I suppose the Asahi brand name might have experienced headwinds in the US too, so adopting Pentax as a brand would have been a smart thing to do in those days.
Funny thing though, the Nikon brand became popular in only a short time after the war by all accounts, when you read through the history of Japanese photographic companies and brand names, it didn’t seem to suffer much at all because of being a ‘Japanese’ brand.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

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Ran across this article:
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/ ... =0226-bed5

Not sure I agree with all of it, but food for thought about the state of the industry right now.
I suppose you can only keep selling people the same thing over and over so many times.

Probably other factors too, with the global economic situation being poor still no doubt people have cut their spending significantly esp in the EU where many countries are well in serious trouble. Who knows where things will be in 10 or 20 years time.


I didn't have a lot of time for Pentax in the 35mm era, they had some very odd 35mm AF bodies around, and IMO they were no match for Minolta 35mm offerings. Pentax were not that interesting in DSLR's either until the K-x turned up
As for the K-3 this is a decent model, but I'm not convinced on the overall package that it's going to deliver a KO blow to other makers. Those huge lens price hikes will have to hurt sales of the K-3 which is a shame (but their own fault). Still at least they have a new higher end APS-C product, which is more than can be said for Canon, Nikon or Sony.

Stamping Ricoh on the back of the camera probably won't bother many Pentax users at all, but it's important to remember that Ricoh are not a well known maker and not really associated with the camera industry in a serious way. So little bit of ego stroking there I think ;-)
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by classiccameras »

I have just been to a Pentax open day at my local dealer SRS of Watford. They had the whole range there and 2 K3's for people to handle. I had a very quick look and hold of a K3, it looked nice , held nicely in the hand, a good OVF. Several people tried to set up the focus peaking but were dissapointed that it was only in live mode, well I think that was their complaint, but could be wrong.

They are almost giving away the older K5 and K30 with lens offers included.
All together, I spent an interesting hour looking and talking to the Pentax team.
They had also displayed all the Rikoh/Pentax lenses available and that was interesting but as we have said, pricey. You can see that Pentax are really trying or is it Rikoh trying, but not sure if the market as it stands at the moment can sustain yet another DSLR system.

In the shop's second hand window were scores of older Pentaxes right back to the Ist. Many people had chopped them in for a Canikons or later model Pentaxes.

Low and behold, in the used Olympus section were 2 OM-D E-M5, one silver, one black, both under £600. Hmm, I thought these were invinsible according to Olympus, obviously not for these two ex owners.
From what I have seen so far, my A57 and A37, meets all my demands.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

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The future does look bleak for the big camera makers making big system cameras and expensive lenses, if the decline is as bad as they indicate in that article.
I think the problem camera makers have now is their products just aren’t connected, they are closed off to the social life that people have now.
Maybe we are all headed towards becoming an anachronism, a kind of obscure and shrinking hidden society that fiddles with cumbersome but mute image recording devices whose purpose is largely irrelevant to mainstream society.

I have to wonder though how much of the decline in SLR style cameras is self-inflicted, are they delivering the kind of product that people want? In Nikon’s case they didn’t do themselves any favours with the way they handled the D600 debacle, releasing a replacement D610 model and largely abandoning existing D600 owners is not a way to ensure continuing loyalty.

And Sony’s 35% decline is much more than even I thought it might be, but with Sony it’s more a case of fragmentation and a sense of system integrity loss or maybe it’s the fundamental system core not being maintained in a totally convincing fashion that makes people wary of investing in it, I know from my own experience right from the start, Sony’s presentation had me worried about the future of the A-mount.
Canon is down as well, but not as badly as Nikon or Sony it seems, they have not had additional self-destruction beyond general market decline like the latter two have.

I don’t know where that leaves Pentax, but you wouldn’t think it looks wonderful for the smaller players, all of them will feel the pinch…badly. But hey, you might as well go down fighting.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by classiccameras »

Good analogy Greg, I aggree with most of your sentiments, its perfectly possible that the big 2 and a lesser extent Sony and Pentax will either go under or will be playing to a niche audience with fewer models in the future.

Thing is with Sony, they are such a huge company with wide ranging assets globally, that if a small part of their empire starts to get poorly, they can afford to put a sticking plaster on it and wait until things improve or a new direction is required for that section.
Sony may have lost their way with the SLT range but they can afford to make mistakes unlike the others who will undoubtedly suffer more.
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Re: Realism in photography in the future (if you need it)

Unread post by bakubo »

classiccameras wrote:Thing is with Sony, they are such a huge company with wide ranging assets globally, that if a small part of their empire starts to get poorly, they can afford to put a sticking plaster on it and wait until things improve or a new direction is required for that section.
Being so big and diversified cuts both ways. Sony could just sell the still camera stuff off or shut down it down and they still have a large business with many products. No one knows how any of this will pan out over the next decade. I don't worry. I figure there will still be cameras around and I will be able to get on with them. I am pretty adaptable, but I know that some people here aren't. If still cameras should totally die out then I will use what I have until I can't or I lose interest. :lol:

Did you get the A100 yet?
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