Handling rant...

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bfitzgerald
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Handling rant...

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Well not a rant but an "observation"
I've been on a film 7 rampage recently and I took the camera to a Canon user (5dKmII and EOS 5 film- the eye control AF camera)

Observations are simple
Canon 5 sucks handling wise, simply put. It doesn't even have a DOF preview button! You have to peer at the square in the top left corner to activate the DOF preview. On body controls are much more simple v the film 7 and frankly grossly inferior all around.

5dMkII is better, but awkward at times with buttons on the top deck to change things like metering/drive mode, whilst I've never been fond of Canon handling it's quite difficult to reach these buttons (which have dual functions depending on the front/rear dial used)
Every Canon/Nikon user I've shown the film 7 to has said it's the best handling camera they've ever used.

Question is simply this.
DK said some time back that we're unlikely to see the numerous switches and dials of previous Minolta bodies due to cost savings.
So how much does it really cost in manufacturing to use the dials/switches?

Quick re-cap via images some moments of brilliance from a camera body designer.
Capture dials.jpg
Flash mode recessed dial brilliant idea
Capture flash mode.JPG
(12.83 KiB) Downloaded 4096 times

On the dual dials, sure covered this ground before :mrgreen: but consider this. Canon get stick for not having locking dials ie exposure mode dial (even offering it as an upgrade on some models) Done back in 2000

Even if you are not a fan of the exp comp dial, you could use other things there..and that flash exp comp scale is quick and handy.
But the big one is the drive mode dial (Nikon copied this too) single, cont, bracketing, multi exposure all there instantly.
And metering mode switch missing on all Sony bodies (current generation)

I'm pondering this, why copy inferior handling of Canon cameras?
Other gems, the DOF readout with D lenses and it actually gives you your mag ratio for macro lenses too. This is a great and genuinely useful feature to have showing you exactly what your DOF is, with these nice high res LCD's now why not have this too?

Even if Sony brought the drive mode dial back it would be something, but instead you get a "Canon button" for this. Hmmm

Other gems missing too. On some of the film bodies (5/60 etc) you could instantly get bracketing just holding the exp comp button and moving the dial
Flash raise button, could be used for flash exp compensation push and hold in combination with a control dial. Be it onboard or with an external flash.

Sometimes I look at some of the Sony bodies and think wow they really don't put a lot into handling. All those wasted buttons on the A57/65 which do nothing in raw or stills mode, the newbie ? button that brings up some guide, the do nothing movie button that sits there never being used in stills. The dial "less" A77 and A99... I've trodden this ground before, but the last few days it's really been a pleasure using the "old 7 film body" it's near perfect handling wise.

Quite disappointing to see Sony try to copy Canon and not come up with their own ideas. I can get to a point the cluster of buttons with the new SLT/EVF Models (ie use them with eye to viewfinder) But for the sake of a few extra £'s on a few dials you can't help but wonder where Sony's handling will go.

Looking at the A3000, and NEX bodies they are to me everything you don't want handling wise on a body!
Going backwards here I think...looking at Samsung's awful Android camera I'm sure makers would love touch controls on a big LCD. Reality is we use our hands to operate cameras, something no modern camera designer has grasped.
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

I like the look of the 7 layout, especially the flash mode dial. I’ve never used one first hand but it looks like a camera with all the functions you would want where you want them.
The push button select and set on screen idea on the later cameras works good if you are using flash at dark locations, you don’t need to go to where the light is to see how to set something, you can see it on screen, you only need to be reasonably familiar where the buttons actually are on your camera.
I’m thinking primarily out in the bush at night where on screen display for settings is wonderful, I’ve had to use a torch at times in the past, but even in the back yard on occasion it’s good too.
I see Nikon have parts of the dials and some buttons self-illuminate on the D4, http://www.dpreview.com/articles/601541 ... nikon-d4/2 I don’t know if they light up all the time or just when you select a setting for that but it is certainly cool, the only problem is the amount you have to spend for the pleasure.
Greg
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Nikon ripped a few bits off including the drive mode dial on their D7k series, it works quite well but the locking mechanism is a bit fiddly.
Sony seem to be following the "sub par" Canon handling route, which is a real shame IMO

The film 7, and 7d handle probably better than any other camera full stop, and any other Sony camera I've used.
It was a shame to see the metering mode switch go too, as it is right now there is nothing left from Minolta design and handling with Sony right now.

But the felt compelled to move the power switch (for some reason) and copy the top LCD from other makers.

There are elements from the film 7 that can't be 100% put into digital (no WB or rarely used ISO on 35mm bodies) but the dual dials, the drive mode, metering mode, and brilliant flash mode selection are iconic and superior designs of handling and ergonomics.
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by classiccameras »

I have just got back after a weekend at the Brussels beer festival in Belgium.
Hmm, I think I will move there!
The streets were heaving with tourist from all over the world and the famous Grande Plas was solid with people, it was absolutely manic.

I took some note to what was hanging round peoples necks, well you've guessed it, 90% were Canon entry level DSLR's with the standard kit lens and a small number of mid range with longer lenses and a few Nikons. I never saw one Olympus or Pentax, but joy o yoy, a Japanese tourist with an A65 and the Sony 18-135. It was the only Sony I saw.This list is by no means accurate, but just observations.
I didn't count mobiles/cell phones or Point and shoot. No 1 by a huge margin was Canon, followed by Bridge cameras of various makes but most looked like either Panasonics, Canons and Nikons with the odd Fuji.
There has to be some thing in this bridge camera trend!
Quite an eye opener.
twm47099
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by twm47099 »

In 2000 I was seriously looking to change from Minolta AF to anybody else's AF system. I only had 2 AF cameras (AF5000 and Maxxum XTsi (505si Super) and a couple of low price lenses (i.e. second hand).

I liked my XTsi and had just come back from a trip to Italy where its light weight and excellent exposure ability gave me some really good photos. So why change?

My previous camera was the Minolta SRT101 manual focus camera. When I tried to check DOF on my XTsi - there was no button. When I tried to lock up the mirror - there was no button. When I wanted to manually prefocus the camera and then use Af for tracking, the camera did the infinity dance with the lens when I switched back to AF. When I wanted to do some comparisons between shooting modes - pushing the button sometimes worked and sometimes didn't requiring me to take my eye from the VF and look at the top plate. Along with the advantages of the modern camera there were those and other frustrations.

So I looked at upgrading - the Minolta cameras available were the 9 (too big, heavy, and expensive) and the 800si. The 800si had its own issues. The biggest was that the control buttons were on the inside of a door on the outside of the grip. That required that I not only remove my eye from the VF, but that I change grip so I can open the door, put on my reading glasses to read the small labels, etc. The 800si also did not have mirror lockup, had the same issue with the infinity dance, and had a really stupid version of DOF preview (press button, look, release button, change aperture, press button, look, etc. along with a mirror bounce each time.)

So I started looking at Canon. The EOS 5 sounded nice, but I couldn't find one to try out and I had read that eyeglass wearers had mixed experience with eye control. I didn't like the Rebels (VF was much smaller and darker than the XTsi), and I wasn't impressed with AF in the store where I tried it. Yes, it was silent, but it wasn't accurate in dim lighting - the XTsi was better, but noiser.

I decided to wait for the new cameras. I'm glad I did. Minolta announced the 7 via an interactive web page. I found all the controls I wanted. Improved Af and AF sensor location, a real DOF-P, a blah Mirror lockup, DMF and the AF/MF button that let me prefocus without the infinity dance, the rear screen and all custom functions in text rather than just numbers, all camera body functions easily set by feel without having to look, and the 3 custom memories. Then there the dreamt about surprises - the built in DOF calculator and honeycomb meter display.

The main thing was just by looking at the images of the camera and the simple description of what it could do, I had figured out how to operate all of the functions of the camera without ever reading a manual or holding the camera. The only function I guessed wrong about was the method for reloading a film container and rewinding it to a specific image (which I used a few times).

The Canon (EOS 7 ) and Nikon (don't remember model number) cameras just had nothing I was interested in. And Canon had even removed spot metering from their mid line camera. Yes IS would have been nice; USM had full-time-manual focusing (simulated by the Maxxum 7's DMF and AF/MF button), but those weren't enough to beat the Maxxum's UI and big bright viewfinder.

The Maxxum 7 was the only reason I stayed with Minolta. I really wish KM and Sony had just added digital to the 7 style body rather than adding their own vision (at least once). KM came close, but removed the f/2.8 X sensor, the DOF calculator and the honeycomb display (which would have let the user correct some of the exposure problems they did add to the KM7D.) They also screwed up the AF capability and exposure algorithms (flash and ambient) of the camera. Sony has done everything they can to get rid of the excellent UI of the 7. I think 2 things happened - Mr. Sony was either a Nikon or Canon user, (or his wife used one or the other) and now that he had to use a Sony, he wanted to make the camera just like the one he was used to. Or he read the reviews of the Maxxum 7 on Luminous Landscape which praised the 7 as a camera designed by photographers - not engineers, and hated the author (or photographers).

tom
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by classiccameras »

Interesting story Tom, I still get great pleasure from putting a few rolls of fujichrome slide film through my Minolta X500 and X-D7, The Rokkor lenses of that period were the best and Sony have never really equalled them.

There are several members on this forum who loved the last KM digital cameras [KM7D & KM5D, I prefered the 5D], and I believe they still use them. The legacy of these 2 cameras can be seen in the Sony A100 and A200 etc., both excellent performers but not so pro based as the earlier KM models. One of the kit lens available on the 800SI was a Minolta 24-85, I found a mint example in my local camera store and use it on my A37. It abviously becomes cropped on APS-C which has enhanced its optical performance over 35mm/FF.
Quite honestly, I get more picture taking pleasure from using a more basic camera such as the A100/200 or my SLT A37 than more sophisticated and expensive models.

Pete
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Greg Beetham
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by Greg Beetham »

That’s what it is I think Pete, I like the handling of the KM5D too, it’s just a straightforward honest picture taking machine without any blingbling, in other words you control your own destiny with it, it doesn’t control you. The end result is I think you end up with some vague undefined sense of achievement using it which is hard to put into words.
I guess one of the reasons is you know the image you took is un-reinvented by the camera after you took it, all of the sensels on the sensor are for recording the image for example, so the image is the actual image ‘as taken’…no fabrication. 8)

And there are plenty of controls available despite the camera being smaller than the A700, it might even be a little smaller than the A100, (I’d need to check), they include a dial for direct access to white balance, a control I never appreciated properly at first but the more I used the camera the more I respected the layout of the whole thing, I think it’s superior to my other two in the layout department actually.
Tis a great pity the camera didn’t come with the KM7D’s rear screen and the shutter from the A700, then it would be close to a perfect photographer’s camera I think, not overloaded with stuff but plenty of instantly accessible control for the important things.
I wouldn’t say no to a 10 or 12MP sensor either, talking APS-C that is, but it’s not as big a deal as is made out to be when most images, I would guess, are reduced down to web size anyway, or printed at snapshot sizes.
That is a design Sony needs to revisit, not to meddle with things that don’t need fixing, just the things that could be improved upon with today’s tech, (USB2 for example) but keep the battery consumption the same or similar, you can pick up the camera a month or so later and the battery charge is still the same roughly as you left it. You can’t do that with any Sony camera I’ve heard of, certainly not the two Sony’s I own. :roll:
Greg
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by classiccameras »

Greg
A lot of sense there. I think to a certain extent people like Sony have wondered off the recognised route trying to be clever with so many more functions that a far more sophisticated processor had to be developed when they took over KM. There had to be trade offs along the way and I think there are still trade offs for video function today.
Don't get me wrong, I think the A100 is almost identical to the KM5D in performance bar the 10mp sensor which I must admit was a step in the right direction.
Of course, the soft ware in the KM cameras was pretty minimul compared to now and very little processing was going on, even Jpegs were not 'over processed' as they seem to be now in all makes of camera. Over processing is detectable on Panny M/4/3 cameras to the point of making the picture look almost 'artificial', certainly on the Jpegs, but thats a personal observation.

I have a soft spot for the lower pixel cameras such as my old Olympus E-510 10MP and my old Nikon D5000D 12MP. The pictures were always superb with very little noise and the colours were never over blown as they are now. Of course you could tweak the colours if you so wished, but they never looked over processed in Jpegs either.

Pete
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bfitzgerald
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Re: Handling rant...

Unread post by bfitzgerald »

Handling is subjective I will admit that.
I found the SI Minolta's a strange move myself, hidden buttons (and important ones too) they seemed to go for "smooth looks" rather than functionality. They hit is spot on though with the 7, the 9, and the 7d (though shame the AF didn't get the same as the film 7)

Never had a problem with the Km5d, bar swapping the drive and ISO buttons it was for a 5 series model solid and mostly well designed. A200 was ok but the idiot who put the flash exp comp in the main menu should have been shot, multiple times! Canon are NOT the company to copy IMO far from it. EOS 5 is embarrassingly bad for handling, and I've yet to handle a Canon even up to date DSLR's that didn't follow this annoying Canon philosophy about buttons and NO dials.

Sony really should not try to copy Canon when their solution is bascially meat hits grinder time just not as good as the later Minolta's. Too many suits in the boardroom when they don't take the cameras out for a field test. To be fair some of the annoyances of previous models have been sorted (took Sony how long to actually let you use spot metering on the AEL button?) Only to be replaced with those awful amateurish nag screens.

Sony have some way to go here, that's if they actually bother to make any more A Mount cameras!
Every time I pick up a film 7, I think wow someone actually sat down and designed this properly, someone took the time to think about things. It's a pleasure to use in every respect and to date unmatched from any maker.

Yes I like the dual dials, so do a lot of folks. If Sony spent less time trying to save a few pennies on products, they might shine a bit more in the DSLR world. The pursuit of excellence is required. I surely hope the bunch who designed the A230 are not working for anyone in camera design. NEX to me (so far) is anti handling anti Minolta. Sony are not Apple, they can't do things with a few buttons and make it stick.

A3000, wow that really sucks (it's in the shops now and I suggest a grab of one to see just how bad it is!), feels even cheaper than the A58. The VF is AWFUL and very small, the controls typical basic NEX. It's so bad it makes the A58 look "good" which is saying something.

That is not the direction to take, it's just plain wrong and embarrassing.
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