Photoclubalpha

bossel in the thread below suggested that I start a new thread with the topic of my experience with my Canon 60D and comparing it to my A700 which I have been using since February 2008.

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/vie ... =21&t=4722

Earlier in the year I had wanted to get an A7xx this year and then when the A55 was announced I thought I might get both. Well, the A7xx this year was just another Sony rumor that turned out not to be true. I have looked at the A550 several times, but the LCD sticks out so much that using the OVF is difficult for me and the OVF is also not as good as the A700 OVF. The A580 was announced and Sony changed a few strange choices/omissions in the A550, but the OVF didn't change. Considering that Canon, Nikon, and Olympus are able to produce DSLRs with a tilt/swivel LCD and not have it stick out so much that it makes getting to the OVF difficult it is a bit of mystery that Sony can't figure out how to do it. It may be something to do with Sony's LCD mount. It only allows tilting without swivel so maybe that is the reason. At one time I thought it might be the SSS mechanism taking up too much space, but Olympus managed to have both. Also, the A550/A580 don't allow you to separate AF from the shutter button and that in combination with the Sony difficulty in focusing wide angle lenses means that I would be back to the same situation as the A100 -- which I dislike a lot. With the A700 I have it configured so that AF is only enabled by pressing on the toggle so that I can quickly zoom in, AF, and then zoom back out to wide angle to take the shot so I can usually workaround the wide angle AF problem reasonably well.

Keep in mind that I don't care one bit about brand so I will try not to be partisan, but I do concentrate on features and performance in the areas that are important to me. For example, I never shoot in continuous advance mode so I don't care if a camera is 3fps, 5fps, 7fps, or 10fps. I suppose 1fps (or even 0.5fps) would be good enough for me. Therefore, I don't pay much attention to this spec. I do like the camera to be quick and responsive though so that is probably related to whether the camera can handle high fps. I also shoot raw so don't care about jpeg processing options. I won't be reviewing the camera. Just using this thread to post notes about what I discover as I go along. I will try to be honest and not hide bad points that I discover.

The 60D is almost exactly the same size as the A700, but it is a bit lighter:

60D: 755g, 145 x 106 x 79mm

A700: 768g, 142 x 105 x 80mm

Here are a few things about the 60D I really like compared to my A700 (that I have discovered so far):

- AF works well at wide angles! Hooray!
- Sleep mode works properly! Hooray!
- Fill-flash works well! Hooray!
- 3:2 LCD that displays photos using all the available space since photos are also 3:2
- Silent mode -- the quietest FSLR or DSLR I have ever owned
- Full-time ISO displayed in vf and it shows the actual ISO when using Auto ISO
- Quick LV and tilt/swivel LCD
- ISO 12,800
- Auto ISO to 6400 (can set maximum ISO)
- 60D gives 1,100 shots vs. A700 gives 650 shots with battery (according to Imaging Resource)

I have noticed also that the well-known red channel noise problem with the A700 that shows up as very noisy, mottled skies hasn't reared its ugly head with the 60D (or 30D and 300D before that). With my A700 the problem can be really terrible, especially when converting to B&W.

Something that is of no interest to most people, but is important to me is that Canon, Nikon, Pentax, and Olympus (the last time I checked) have multiple languages for the menu in Japan and everywhere in the world English is one of the choices. The Sony cameras sold in Japan have firmware that does not allow the language to be changed from Japanese. That means when I am in Japan, sometimes for extended periods, Sony is not really a purchase choice -- even if my camera dies or is lost. I had a long thread about this on dpreview in 2007 when the A700 came out and it is a mystery why Sony does it, but other DSLR makers don't.

Thanks! The next question will obviously be what lenses you're using and how good they are?

Since this thread is a continuation of the 60D discussion from the other thread I will respond to the last post made in that thread here. To see earlier posts about the 60D refer back to that thread (the link is in the OP of this thread).

David Kilpatrick wrote:Well, I must be wrong about the weights, I checked figures and found the difference to be the other way round, and the same is reported on various websites (but so is the 60D being lighter). I have used the 7D - twice - but not alongside the 60D. However, I used the 7D at a time when I was only using the A900, and it seemed a fairly compact camera; I used the 60D right alongside the A550 and A55, and NEX. It seemed huge. Then again, the A700 now seems huge to me and we decided against taking it last week. Shirley used the A550 instead, and I would have to say the success rate was higher - more accurate focus, more accurate exposure. The only thing which really bugged her was the viewfinder crop. She was amazed at how much extra stuff appeared in the final shots, when she knew what the composition was.

Yes, after using the A55 and A580 the A700 seems big. From looking at the A700 and 60D and especially holding them I see that the dimension specs for them are a bit misleading. The A700 looks bigger and definitely feels bigger in the hand. The reason is because the A700 body is much thicker. They both feel comfortable in my hand though, just different.

David Kilpatrick wrote: Here the 60D has a considerable advantage.

I think the 60D just has UNLOCK written on the button. No indication on the body as to where you should expect to find +/- compensation, at all. The lock is very necessary and I wish the NEX had one like it. It is very easy to turn the dial when handling the NEX, not quite so easy with the Canon as it's much firmer, but still possible.

Yes, it just says UNLOCK. I never used it on the 30D and expect I won't use it on the 60D. I like to be able to quickly make exposure compensation changes without having to fiddle with unlocking that function. I haven't had problems with them getting changed accidentally.

David Kilpatrick wrote: I always disliked the old on/off switch with the lock as a third position, because I could not get at it on some tripod heads, and when holding the camera in my right hand it was in quite the wrong place for the left hand to operate, as well as being a fiddly three-position switch. The 60D arrangement is far better and improves Canon ergonomics almost to KM 7D or A700 level, but still not quite. They are following Sony's lead and reducing the number of buttons and controls....

Ah, I can see what you mean about the old Canon switch. I only occasionally use my camera on a tripod. I bet that is the main reason why Canon changed it. It is interesting how different people with different ways of using a camera can find and focus on completely different things and have different things that are annoying.

It is a little early for me to reach any conclusions, but my feeling is that the 60D metering is much more consistent and reasonable than on my A700. With the A700 I was constantly riding the EC control. I learned to do it as I saw what I was going to photograph because I could often guess when the camera was going to get it wrong. Part of that is experience from using the A700, but mostly it is just knowing how meters basically work and seeing a scene with lots of dark tones which often leads to overexposure or a scene with lots of light tones which often leads to underexposure. Also, after reviewing a photo I often have to reshoot with EC on the A700. So far, I have hardly used EC with the 60D at all. The first day I was doing it some, but then in many cases I would have to delete the photo and reshoot without EC. As I said, it is a bit early for me to reach any conclusions, but it seems like the metering is much better. Also, with my A700 the metering is sometimes very inconsistent. Not all the time, just sometimes. Two shots within seconds of each, hand held, might give wildly different meter readings although the light is still the same. The probable answer is that the framing is slightly different and something in the scene has caught the attention of the camera's computer that is interpreting the readings of the matrix meter and it suddenly causes the whole exposure to change by 2-4 stops even though nothing of consequence is different and the exposure should be the same in both shots.

I have realised the mistake I made. I looked up comparative weights for older 40D-50D series bodies, which were magnesium, and the 60D, and that's where the difference must have been. It's very hard to get an official weight for the camera - dPreview quote 755g including card and battery, compared to 730g for the 50D without either - Imaging Resource say 779g, and then say the weight has increased by 25g over the 50D.

I was confusing this with the 7D weight comparison. The rotating screen and plastic/steel build make a basically slightly heavier camera, and the extra 5mm in body thickness over the 50D does make it feel a much bigger camera.

The 60D could have gone away with us last week to the Canary Islands, complete with some fairly nice lenses if not an ideal set (17mm TS-E, 17-55mm f/2.8, 100mm IS macro). But I had finished the test needed, and compared the results with the A55 and other cams, and decided it should go back to Canon as it wasn't going to give me anything better, and the success rate with the cameras and lenses we know and use regularly was much better.

David

Yes, the 60D is 5mm thicker, but DSLR measurements are a bit misleading since the thickness is from the back to the front of the handgrip and not the thickness of the body. Also, the height is to the top of the prism and not to the top of the body shoulder. I have found that when I actually hold a camera some feel much bigger or smaller. The 50D seems to be a lot bigger and is definitely a lot heavier. I have held the 60D and 7D at the same time at Best Buy and the 60D feels a lot smaller and much lighter. I also have 2 friends here with the 50D and a friend with the 40D. I have played with all of them. They also feel bigger than the 60D and are much heavier. It also feels smaller than my 30D and is lighter.

60D: 755g, 145 x 106 x 79mm
50D: 822g, 146 x 108 x 74mm
40D: 822g , 146 x 108 x 74mm
30D: 784g, 144 x 106 x 74mm
7D: 820g, 148 x 111 x 74mm
A700: 768g, 142 x 105 x 80mm
A900: 895g, 156 x 117 x 82mm
I even considered the 550D since it is smaller and lighter than the 60D, but it doesn't feel as good in my hands, doesn't have the rear control wheel, has a smaller OVF, and feels a bit unwieldy when a large lens is attached. Feature wise though, I think, it has much of what is important to me. If I am ever traveling and the 60D gets lost, stolen, or broken I can almost always easily find a 550D to buy. Saw them in Vietnam, Egypt, etc.

It is interesting that at the moment Canon seems to have returned to the FSLR days in one way. In film days the sensor quality (film) and the lens determined the IQ so you were free to choose which level of SLR based on features, speed, robustness, and price. With the 550D, 60D, and 7D all having essentially the same 18mp sensor with the same IQ we are back to that. You can have any of these and have one of the others as a backup and the IQ will be the essentially the same.

By the way, I don't mean this thread to be a place to praise Canon or the 60D. I am just writing my impressions and I have found a few slightly annoying things that I will post soon. So far, they are really minor though and are not a problem for me. I found them myself -- they are not ones I found by reading forums.

Something that occurred to me is that the new 60D is sort of at the level of the old Nikon D90 and the new Nikon D7000 is sort of at the level of the old Canon 50D. The Canon 7D is sort of at the level of the old Nikon D300s. I suppose Nikon will come out with an update to the D90 unless they have abandoned that level and decided to go with the D7000 level (50D) instead. This is at the same time that Canon seems to have abandoned the 50D level and decided to go to the 60D level (D90 level). Canon and Nikon seem to have exchanged places. We'll have to wait and see if the Nikon D300s stays at that level or goes up or down.

One more thing that is cool that I discovered last night. I knew that the 60D has an electronic level you can use on the rear LCD, but it also has one in the OVF.

Looks like size and weight wise, A700 and 60D are close to being identical!

bossel wrote:Looks like size and weight wise, A700 and 60D are close to being identical!

I just now took a quick photo of the A700 and 60D from the top. Yes, they are very similar size, but the A700 looks thicker. In the hand the A700 feels a bit bigger because of that, but actually they are pretty similar. bossel, by the way, I haven't forgotten your question about lenses. I am writing something up and will post it later.

Henry, where are you getting your weights from? They don't agree with anything I can find. I do not have the physical cameras here to weigh, and did not do so. Maybe I need to start doing that.

David

David Kilpatrick wrote:Henry, where are you getting your weights from? They don't agree with anything I can find. I do not have the physical cameras here to weigh, and did not do so. Maybe I need to start doing that.

I got them from the dpreview camera reviews. I only used the weights including the battery. I think I checked one or two on the Canon website, but it was the same. Maybe dpreview got their data directly from Canon.

I just checked my 60D manual and it has the same weight.

Here are things that I have found that are different from the A700 and are not as good on the 60D, IMO:

- Can't zoom to maximum image magnification with one button press

This one is a bit annoying. Sometimes if I think a photo might not be sharp (not sure I got focus right, low shutter speed so not sure if there is camera or subject blur, etc.) then I like to be able to quickly zoom all the way in to check sharpness. With the 60D (same as 30D) you have to either press the zoom button over and over to get to maximum zoom or just hold it down and it will zoom in. It isn't as fast as the one button press on the A700. The good thing about the 60D is that the button is marked with a magnifying glass. The A700 uses the AF/MF button. Who would guess that? It is similar to David's criticism that the 60D doesn't have a marked exposure control button. You just have to know that you use the rear control wheel. Of course, both of these things are documented in the respective manuals.

- Focal length not shown on image info display

When you review an image with the option of displaying all the info (histogram, shutter speed, aperture, ISO, etc.) it doesn't include the focal length. The A700 does. This isn't a big deal to me, but I did like that it was there on the A700. With the A700 you must press the C button to get that expanded info. Who would guess that? The 60D uses the INFO button.

- ISO settings don't wraparound

As you scroll through the ISO values it stops when you get to the highest ISO (or lowest ISO). Then you must go in the opposite direction to get to the other end. For example, if you are at ISO 12,800 and want to go to ISO 100 you can't just turn the wheel one more click. You must go backwards all the way through the list. The A700 wraps around. This one isn't a real big deal for me either since it is rare I want to quickly go from the high end to the low end or vice versa, but still it is a nice A700 feature.

- 1 memory setting

The A700 has three memory settings, but the 60D has only one. I never used the memory on the A700 so this is not important to me.

If and when I find other things I will post them here. Also, if I find some more good things too.

bossel wrote:Thanks! The next question will obviously be what lenses you're using and how good they are?

I still have a Tamron 28-75mm f2.8 and Sigma 10-20mm f4-5.6 lens in Canon mount from when I had a 30D before. Last week I bought a 60D and the following superzooms:

Canon 18-200mm f3.5-5.6, 79 x 102mm, 600g, $589
Sigma 18-250mm f3.5-6.3, 79 x 101mm, 630g, $479
Tamron 18-270mm f3.5-6.3, 80 x 101mm, 560g, $629

I like having a superzoom for walking around and for travel.

I will only keep one. I think I like the Canon and Tamron lenses the best so have pretty much eliminated the Sigma. The Sigma is the heaviest also so that is a strike against it. I think the build quality of all 3 is fine for a lens of this type and price range. For a walkaround lens I do not want a big, heavy, metal lens. Actually, I wish they were all smaller and lighter! There was no lens creep for any lens when pointed down. Of course, when a lens gets older it sometimes loosens up a bit, but all 3 have lens locks. My 7 year old Tamron 28-75mm f2.8 still doesn't have lens creep though.

The Sigma has micro-HSM (fake HSM), but AF seems to not be any faster than the Canon which doesn't have USM. The Tamron AF is a half-step slower than the Canon, but still seems okay. I don't typically use servo AF mode, but a couple of days ago I shot some bodyboarders using servo mode using the Tamron. It was able to keep up and it was interesting to see it constantly keeping the subjects in focus as they got closer. My A700 and 18-250mm could not do that with servo mode. I would always use single-shot mode with the A700 and got most in focus. I also tried focusing on something very close and then something at infinity to see how long it took with each lens. I did it several times. Also, focusing in a more typical situation of subjects at distances that didn't vary so much. All seemed acceptable to me for things I typically photograph. Both the Canon and Tamron AF was pretty quiet. The Sigma didn't seem any quieter. For me, AF noise is a non-issue for all 3 lenses. Focus accuracy was fine with all of them. I have been using the Tamron and Canon the most after I decided I probably wouldn't choose the Sigma. Both the Tamron and Canon focus accurately and without hesitation or hunting in most conditions. Even indoors they both worked well -- except when I tried focusing on my toes in an almost dark room (200mm, ISO 6400, 1/6 second, f5.6) and both could not focus. I didn't really expect them to, but I just wanted to see if one would and the other wouldn't. My A700 + 18-250mm also could not focus.

Tamron advantages: lighter, includes lens hood, photozone and dpreview rate IQ slightly better, 6 year warranty, 70mm longer focal length, better lens cap (don't need to remove lens hood to put on and off), slightly higher macro magnification

Canon advantages: Canon lens (no worries about future compatibility), AF a bit faster, at 200mm lens length about 23mm shorter than Tamron at 200mm

Note, photozone tested the Tamron and Canon on the same 50D body (15mp, 1.6x) so, I think, the results are better for legitimate comparison purposes. The dpreview test of the Canon used a 50D (15mp, 1.6x body), I think, but the Tamron was tested on a Nikon D300 and D90 (12mp, 1.5x bodies).

Note, my Tamron 28-75mm that I bought in 2003 works fine on the 60D, 30D, and 300D. I think compatibility problems are rare with Tamron. I don't know if it is true, but I have heard that Sigma reverse engineers the protocol/interface, but Tamron licenses it.

I also checked to see how the aperture changes as you zoom:

Tamron
18mm f3.5
28mm f4
40mm f4.5
60mm f5
100 f5.6
220mm f6.3

Canon
18mm f3.5
24mm f4
40mm f4.5
50mm f5
80mm f5.6

Sigma
18mm f3.5
22mm f4
35mm f4.5
50mm f5
75mm f5.6
135mm f6.3

I am not a pixel peeper or measurebator so I have just been taking photos with the 3 lenses on the 60D and looking at them on the computer. No big surprises. They all are okay. I have read several reviews of the lenses and they are good to get the nitty-gritty about optical performance. Of course, we all want the optical performance to be good and when choosing between 3 very similar lenses we want the best of the 3, if possible. As we all know a superzoom is a compromise, but the Tamron and Canon both are acceptable.

I shoot raw. LR3 and DxO have lens profiles for the lenses that will automatically correct/improve the optical quality. I don't have either software now, but may get one of them. DxO tries to correct sharpness, CA/PF, vignetting, and distortion. LR 3 tries to correct CA/PF, vignetting, and distortion.

I haven't made a decision yet because I want to use them a bit longer, but I am leaning to keeping the Tamron at the moment. Yes, I would like the best points of each of the 3 lenses all in one, but that never happens. So, one is left trying to decide which trade-offs one can live with the best. Now that Tamron has released their new 70-300mm with USD (USM motor) they will probably at some point update the 18-270mm with it, but no one knows when. It will almost certainly be heavier too.

By the way, I said that I quickly decided I like the Tamron and Canon lenses a bit better than the Sigma. One reason was because the Sigma was the heaviest, but the main reason is because in reviews on dpreview the Sigma was rated the lowest optically.

For example, dpreview said this about the sharpness compared to the Tamron:

In a fashion that's almost stereotypical between the two brands, the Tamron certainly appears to be consistently sharper, and has a rather more effective stabilisation system.

Also, dpreview rated the Sigma, Tamron, and Canon like this:

S 7.5, T 7.5, C 7.5 Build quality
S 8.0, T 8.0, C 8.0 Ergonomics & handling
S 9.0, T 9.0, C 8.5 Features
S 7.0, T 7.5, C 7.0 Image quality
S 7.0, T 7.0, C 7.0 Value

The Tamron was rated higher than the Canon and Sigma for Image quality.

Plus, the Sigma does not have HSM, it has micro-HSM (fake HSM). You can read about the difference between USM/HSM and micro-USM/HSM here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=15260787

After I bought the 3 lenses I discovered, coincidentally, that Tamron has a $150 rebate on the lens. Cool! With the Tamron rebate the price is $110 less than the Canon and since Canon needs a separate lens hood the price is actually about $150 less. If I decide to go with the Tamron then this is icing on the cake.